GC: With the potential for future advancements in medical technology, what does this mean for the immutability of biological sex?

submitted by transwomanHesitantly QT? from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I always thought sex was only physical. Is a male socialized woman not female? I'm pretty confused right now. If you want to argue that they'll never be like women, because they lack the socialization then let me ask you the question: what is a woman if not an adult human female?

[–]DistantGlimmer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I do not think "male socialized women" can exist in this society. If the society which had the hypothetical technology to change physical sex was also the kind of genderless society that GC people want then yes you could make someone identical to other females without socialization but in a patriarchy, a male socialized person will still be shaped in important ways by their male socialization and privilege.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So woman isn't just about sex? Assume there is a nation that has a matriarchal society due to some great equalizer that makes women stronger than men. It's basically the same as our society, but the sex classes are reversed. Let's call that country Matrica. Would a trans woman undergoing a complete medical sex change from this society be a woman in the US?

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The original purpose of decoupling sex from gender in second wave feminism was to decouple the socialized parts of biological sex from the physical parts. Many would like a world where gender didn't exist but it does unfortunately so socialization will be part of the sex class as long as patriarchy exists.

Transwomen in your hypothetical society would I think be just like transmen in this one. They would pose little risk to women and I suspect the main fight in Matrica would be between men fighting for male liberation from matriarchy and female transmen insisting 'transmen are men' But no, transmen are not identical to men either partly because of the female socialization they go through.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry for answering this late. Was kind busy. I'm aware why sex was decoupled from gender and I agree with the sentiment second wave feminism puts forward. I'm just confused why you link these two again. Imo somone is female regardless of socialization and if woman is adult human female, then male socialized women could exist, albeit unlikely in current society, and someone undergoing a perfect sex change would actually be a woman/man. Imo this follows logically from the premise that womanhood is only about sex. Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

[–]DistantGlimmer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you're confusing ought with is. Sex and gender are linked because gender is a hierarchy based on sex. A woman can only be an adult human female but there is also a gender aspect to being a woman under patriarchy. Society should be such that being born into a male or female body places no gendered expectations or socialization on the person but that is what we have to fight for.

Theoretically, it may be possible to raise a woman socialized male or a man socialized female if it was like on a desert island with no other contacts but in an actual society, I think it is virtually impossible. because they will get those messages from many places other than their parents. There are interesting discussions about people like Jazz Jennings or that other one that was transitioned really young and the extent to which they would be male or female socialized though but luckily this is not the experience of most trans people.