Both: Do you think drag is offensive or problematic?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I think women are well within their rights to complain about GNC men or transwomen who don't do it respectfully and/or over-sexualized it.

Why? If gnc men or transwomen wanna look like hell on wheels, or just wanna be sexy in general, what's wrong with that? Is beeing sexy in a feminine way exclusive to females? Or am I missing some context?

[–]DistantGlimmer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I see it as being similar to the discussions about cultural appropriation. Femininity is something imposed on women. If males are going to opt into dressing feminine we need to be very careful to be respectful about it and not just reduce other people's oppression to a turn-on or a joke.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Femininity is something imposed on women.

I think that's deeply patronising to women. As if they are all too weak and can't possibly enjoy femininity.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Of course it's something imposed on women. If declining to participate in femininity comes with social punishment, that is in no way a free choice.

It's really offensive to pretend that girls have any choice about being trained to participate in femininity. The vast majority of little girls have zero say in how they're dressed or how their parents keep their hair. How many little girls are given the choice to have buzzcuts? How many little girls are allowed to shop in the boys' section? How many little girls are forced to wear dresses to church and for holidays? They are trained from the earliest age possible to consider that femininity and only femininity is appropriate for them, and the very few of us who deny femininity are subjected to harsh social punishment if we continue to deny it into adulthood.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But something can be socially pressured to conform to and it can be natural.

Sexuality is like that. Heterosexuality is socially pressured to different degrees in different places. Yet homosexuality remains, without or without social pressure.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We have zero data on that. The only way to tell if it's natural would be to raise children in a society in which there was absolutely no pressure to engage in femininity if female and masculinity if male. On the contrary, our society deliberately trains children (starting at birth) to conform to gender stereotypes.

Regardless, there is no sharp division in the youngest of children. That's why parents freak out when their toddlers and preschoolers, especially their precious sons, show signs of deviating from the script.

I still think it's very offensive to look at what society puts women through in terms of training them to participate in femininity and then to say "oh, it's natural" as if that excuses it. Women are not born with hatred for their body hair or their natural faces. They are trained to believe their natural bodies are defective, shameful, and taboo.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Saying gender roles are a system imposed on people and femininity is the subordinate gender role does not mean that women can't genuinely enjoy some aspects of femininity. I know you think gender roles are natural and I still strongly and fundamentally disagree with that.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What if the majority of women genuinely enjoy femininity? That's the natural model.

I don't see people wanting to reject gender in anything like a majority.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How would you go about determining that? "Femininity"? is not one unified thing, it's hard to even agree on a concrete definition of all the things that are feminine and it evolves a lot through time so this is why it's obvious that it is a social thing not a natural and fixed one. Women can still go on enjoying those aspects of femininity they actually enjoy if it isn't specifically associated with being born into a female body.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How would you go about determining that? "Femininity"?

If behaviours are universal to human populations then it's likely to be be natural or very very close to something natural that triggers it.

There are no populations without gender.

is not one unified thing, it's hard to even agree on a concrete definition of all the things that are feminine and it evolves a lot through time so this is why it's obvious that it is a social thing not a natural and fixed one.

This is where the comparison with language comes in. It's different, varies and a human universal. The trigger for language is natural. If you removed it. It would re emerge.

Women can still go on enjoying those aspects of femininity they actually enjoy if it isn't specifically associated with being born into a female body.

If that happened it would be not femininity. But it doesn't happen.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender is not expressed in a universal way. I think part of gender was initially rooted in physical (not neurological) differences but those things are far less relevant now. At least in the developed world there are no cultures where different roles need to be dictated simply due to physical strength outside of perhaps very specific jobs.

Language is important as an evolutionary tool. It is essential to our ability to communicate. We could theoretically abolish language but no sane person would argue for this. Feminists argue for the abolition of gender on the basis that gender roles serve no beneficial purpose and in fact serve to oppress people. Yes, the point is that there is no actual purpose to group these behaviors by sex so you're not arguing that women should be free to enjoy what they enjoy (which I obviously agree with) but that these things should be assigned to women under the term femininity.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I may disagree. If the joke was degrading women because of their femininity I would totally get behind that. It's not something they choose for themselves so making any joke about the oppressed class based on its oppression Is cruel. But sexual femine expression does not do that. No matter how oversexualized, which honestly is a nebulous term at best. Where is the line between sexualized and oversexualized?

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What about "bimboification" and "sissification?" Those are both male displays of sexual feminine expression that are based around women being stupid and weak and degraded.

[–]DistantGlimmer 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's definitely a line and it is nuanced. It's really up to women to say where the line is and I don't think it's something they really are all going to agree on but I think it is important to be aware and respectful of that just as I would be if I was wearing something inspired by someone else's culture and someone from that culture got offended by it.