all 31 comments

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s misogynistic and heavily sexualised. Terrible parenting to bring your children any where near it.

Crudely pantomiming women isn’t particularly comedic, nor is it the art form fans try and glorify it as. If it was really all about the comedy, just do standup. If it was really about the clothes, put together a collection and send it down the runway.
At its heart, it’s about caricaturing women. Men mocking women for behaviours resulting from men’s demands.

Kids don’t need to be exposed to that sort of garbage.

[–]divingrightintowork 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My biggest issue is any time myself or another woman says something even vaguely critical of it, we need to prepare to get dog piled. I don't think it is outside the realm of critique and commentary, especially by women.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, that's a problem. It's the same when feminists criticize any aspect of "woke" culture.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah females are too privileged to know what it's like to be marginalized.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd say I'm kind of neutral on drag. I think it can be misogynistic, but I also believe it can be done in ways that aren't sexist.

I would assume drag kings are less socially problematic just because they involve women making fun of maleness and male stereotypes, and since men are the ones with social power, it doesn't have the same harmful potential.

I don't believe children should be doing traditional drag, especially not in adult settings. I'm perfectly fine with them crossdressing, either part time or full time, as long as what they're wearing is age appropriate. I don't think makeup is appropriate for kids except on Halloween.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the whole drag queen storytime thing. Theoretically, it could be a good way for kids to be exposed to GNC adult men. Of course there need to be background checks, just like with any adult interacting with kids. Apparently there have been news stories about people reading to kids who shouldn't be around kids.

I don't see a problem with an interaction like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj-X2U1z9rc

It seemed like it was educational and informative and also age appropriate. And the drag queen was very clear to the kids that he was a man, so there was no confusion about that.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have always hated drag.

It takes the most exaggerated gender stereotypes of women possible for what? Entertainment?

No thanks.

[–]IceColdLover 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see it as akin to cultural appropriation when it is men dressing in drag as women. It is a dominant group embodying the most demeaning stereotypes of women. More importantly, it really shows us how men truly view women.

Since women do not hold systematic power over men, I have no issue with the reverse.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

When dressing more feminine I've always thought that it should be done in a respectful way to women. I think women are well within their rights to complain about GNC men or transwomen who don't do it respectfully and/or over-sexualized it.

i realize drag is a performance thing and it's very enmeshed with gay male culture so it's complex. I think the overused word "problematic" is actually very good here. There's nuance to it but I get how some women find it offensive.

Drag-kings is a totally different social context. I don't see anything offensive about that. Go for it. I think it's a positive thing for women to challenge or poke fun at masculinity.

i haven't really followed much of the controversy about DQSH. Nothing wrong with a man dressed femininely reading stories to kids if that's all it is. Possibly it is helpful to them to see that men do not have to dress in masculine ways. The same would apply to children dressing up themselves in GNC clothing. It's great as long as it just isn't used as a way of teaching them stereotypes.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I think women are well within their rights to complain about GNC men or transwomen who don't do it respectfully and/or over-sexualized it.

Why? If gnc men or transwomen wanna look like hell on wheels, or just wanna be sexy in general, what's wrong with that? Is beeing sexy in a feminine way exclusive to females? Or am I missing some context?

[–]DistantGlimmer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I see it as being similar to the discussions about cultural appropriation. Femininity is something imposed on women. If males are going to opt into dressing feminine we need to be very careful to be respectful about it and not just reduce other people's oppression to a turn-on or a joke.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Femininity is something imposed on women.

I think that's deeply patronising to women. As if they are all too weak and can't possibly enjoy femininity.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Of course it's something imposed on women. If declining to participate in femininity comes with social punishment, that is in no way a free choice.

It's really offensive to pretend that girls have any choice about being trained to participate in femininity. The vast majority of little girls have zero say in how they're dressed or how their parents keep their hair. How many little girls are given the choice to have buzzcuts? How many little girls are allowed to shop in the boys' section? How many little girls are forced to wear dresses to church and for holidays? They are trained from the earliest age possible to consider that femininity and only femininity is appropriate for them, and the very few of us who deny femininity are subjected to harsh social punishment if we continue to deny it into adulthood.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But something can be socially pressured to conform to and it can be natural.

Sexuality is like that. Heterosexuality is socially pressured to different degrees in different places. Yet homosexuality remains, without or without social pressure.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We have zero data on that. The only way to tell if it's natural would be to raise children in a society in which there was absolutely no pressure to engage in femininity if female and masculinity if male. On the contrary, our society deliberately trains children (starting at birth) to conform to gender stereotypes.

Regardless, there is no sharp division in the youngest of children. That's why parents freak out when their toddlers and preschoolers, especially their precious sons, show signs of deviating from the script.

I still think it's very offensive to look at what society puts women through in terms of training them to participate in femininity and then to say "oh, it's natural" as if that excuses it. Women are not born with hatred for their body hair or their natural faces. They are trained to believe their natural bodies are defective, shameful, and taboo.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Saying gender roles are a system imposed on people and femininity is the subordinate gender role does not mean that women can't genuinely enjoy some aspects of femininity. I know you think gender roles are natural and I still strongly and fundamentally disagree with that.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What if the majority of women genuinely enjoy femininity? That's the natural model.

I don't see people wanting to reject gender in anything like a majority.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How would you go about determining that? "Femininity"? is not one unified thing, it's hard to even agree on a concrete definition of all the things that are feminine and it evolves a lot through time so this is why it's obvious that it is a social thing not a natural and fixed one. Women can still go on enjoying those aspects of femininity they actually enjoy if it isn't specifically associated with being born into a female body.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How would you go about determining that? "Femininity"?

If behaviours are universal to human populations then it's likely to be be natural or very very close to something natural that triggers it.

There are no populations without gender.

is not one unified thing, it's hard to even agree on a concrete definition of all the things that are feminine and it evolves a lot through time so this is why it's obvious that it is a social thing not a natural and fixed one.

This is where the comparison with language comes in. It's different, varies and a human universal. The trigger for language is natural. If you removed it. It would re emerge.

Women can still go on enjoying those aspects of femininity they actually enjoy if it isn't specifically associated with being born into a female body.

If that happened it would be not femininity. But it doesn't happen.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender is not expressed in a universal way. I think part of gender was initially rooted in physical (not neurological) differences but those things are far less relevant now. At least in the developed world there are no cultures where different roles need to be dictated simply due to physical strength outside of perhaps very specific jobs.

Language is important as an evolutionary tool. It is essential to our ability to communicate. We could theoretically abolish language but no sane person would argue for this. Feminists argue for the abolition of gender on the basis that gender roles serve no beneficial purpose and in fact serve to oppress people. Yes, the point is that there is no actual purpose to group these behaviors by sex so you're not arguing that women should be free to enjoy what they enjoy (which I obviously agree with) but that these things should be assigned to women under the term femininity.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I may disagree. If the joke was degrading women because of their femininity I would totally get behind that. It's not something they choose for themselves so making any joke about the oppressed class based on its oppression Is cruel. But sexual femine expression does not do that. No matter how oversexualized, which honestly is a nebulous term at best. Where is the line between sexualized and oversexualized?

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What about "bimboification" and "sissification?" Those are both male displays of sexual feminine expression that are based around women being stupid and weak and degraded.

[–]DistantGlimmer 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's definitely a line and it is nuanced. It's really up to women to say where the line is and I don't think it's something they really are all going to agree on but I think it is important to be aware and respectful of that just as I would be if I was wearing something inspired by someone else's culture and someone from that culture got offended by it.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

When dressing more feminine I've always thought that it should be done in a respectful way to women. I think women are well within their rights to complain about GNC men or transwomen who don't do it respectfully and/or over-sexualized it.

I'm trying to understand what you mean. Do you feel like all feminine dress or manner is parodying women? I guess I feel like femininity can be a personal expression that isn't that for some people (certain gay men for instance), even though society tends to associate all femininity with women, so it wouldn't make sense for women to be concerned about because it isn't about women or involving women.

[–]DistantGlimmer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do you feel like all feminine dress or manner is parodying women?

No actually that is the opposite of what I was saying. It is the difference between wearing a skirt of makeup just as like a piece of clothing because it makes you feel good and that sissy fetish type shit that inherently mocks women. Or that is my opinion of it anyway. I hate the fetish crap.

Nothing wrong with femininity unless it is used for parody or sexual gratification by men.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for explaining! Sorry I misunderstood you. That makes more sense and I feel similarly. I really feel like the world would be better if we could get to a place where women weren’t seen as owning femininity and men weren’t seen as owning masculinity.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No prob. I completely agree with what you wrote.

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As someone who likes theatre, my immediate response is to like drag - I always felt like RuPaul's quote about "everyone's born naked, the rest is drag" made sense to me. When I was young my experience was that it was funny, made fun of social expectations, and didn't take itself too seriously either. The whole point seemed to be to explore boundaries. Drag queens always showed love for the women they were performing, choosing strong personalities who had explored boundaries of their own...

I liked drag kings too though they were a new thing and seemed to mean something different (but what exactly?) at first. And then the trans gender movement took off and exactly where drag stood was less and less clear - it is not even always clear how drag and trans are distinct. So these days I feel a little unsure about everything.

I'm also miles away from it all, whereas I used to be in a neighborhood, in a community, know lots of people, somehow be very aware of lots of things happening. These days I couldn't say when the last time I've seen someone in drag is, while 20 years ago it would be a normal part of the music/ theater/ culture around me.

[–]luckystar 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I go back and forth on this. Ultimately I do kinda see it as "womanface", but I don't see it as hugely detrimental to women's rights. There are far more pressing issues facing women. And I do have a bit of a double standard here because I find women in men's clothes very appealing (as a mostly heterosexual woman I still feel somehow attracted to women in drag). However I have very little exposure to true drag kings outside of photos on the internet, and I don't know what an actual drag king show would entail.

Children absolutely should not do drag nor should drag performers be reading to young children. You might as well have a porn actress read to young children. Drag is an adult entertainment form.

Ultimately I'm not interested in drag. Yes, I suppose it's an art form, like burlesque, but that kind of stuff is just not my cup of tea. It's like how I wouldn't go to a Rocky Horror Show -- I have a general idea of what happens at those places and they don't interest me. I'm a pretty reserved person in general. Don't care if other people are into it but it's not really for me.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It can be but isn’t inherently bad, like any art form. If it is making fun of women or trans people generally it’s bad but if it’s simple performance or transgressive of enforcing traditional norms it’s good.

Children doing drag strikes me as strange because is always been such a bar act to me. Queens reading to kids seems fine to me as long as they are clean acts. The point is to get the kids to accept different people right? That’s a good thing.

[–]yishengqingwa666 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why is blackface offensive but womanface is somehow not?

Yes. Drag is misogynist minstrelsy.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How do you feel about drag kings?