GC: Why can't women be called handsome and men be called beautiful/pretty? Is it the english language that says handsome can't be used to describe women and beautiful/pretty can't be used to describe men?

submitted by Nohope from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Those words should be neutral.

Men feel offended and humiliated to be associated with feminine words because anything that would involve them "being like a woman" is matter of shame. It's ground into boys from day one that femininity is shameful for them, and that women are weaker and lesser. That's why even so-called enlightened men will go around calling each other "bitch" and "pussy" as insults.

As for women, being called "handsome" is not shameful in the sense that it means they are weak, but any implication that they are "mannish" is considered an affront because women are taught to value conventional attractiveness. They don't want to be masculine because it means they are lower on the totem pole of femininity, and only the women at the top are prized. There's no social power in being at the top, because those women are still considered weak and pathetic, but they are at least prized as sex objects, whereas masculine women are not. Women are taught from infancy that being a decorative object should be one of their main goals in life.

[–]DistantGlimmer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think this is accurate. I remember in the goth community hearing "pretty" used for men who were attractive in an androgynous or feminine way and in that case it was not meant as an insult but a genuine compliment but it definitely is a feminine coded word.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, it may be more acceptable in some subcultures. When it comes to the general public, I feel like those words will never lose their derogatory association unless we get rid of misogyny. As long as being like a woman is shameful, applying feminine words to men will also be shameful.

I've even seen this in troubling accounts of children who have been transitioned. One account had a natal female child whose family "knew" she was a trans boy because she was humiliated at the thought of wearing dresses, just like any "normal" boy would be. This was given as justification for transitioning the child, who was still in elementary school.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah. I can see even having a different word for "femininely attractive" vs. "masculinely attractive" but it definitely has to be destigmatized and I suppose if we ever did totally get rid of gender those distinctions might just totally disappear.

I know what you mean about kid s being pressured, did you hear about that thing a lot of GC people on Twitter were talking about recently? - I think it was based on something on US TV but these horrible homophobic parents got a doctor to say their son was trans "because that was so much better than being gay" and were pretty much forcing the boy to "act like a girl" (they used to beat him for being an effeminate boy) it almost brought tears to my eyes just to read about it. There are definitely some really regressive and abusive elements to this ideology.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I wonder if that was Kai Shappley. I posted about him on the old debate sub and also mentioned him on Saidit.

Kai was a very feminine preschooler (of his own volition) whose parents beat him to try to get rid of his femininity. When that failed, they took him to a doctor and had him transitioned. They also put him on a Netflix show recently.

Kimberly turned to a DIY form of conversion therapy. She dressed Kai in camouflage and held her down to cut her blond hair into a flattop. Since most of the family’s seven children are boys—Kimberly has one adult daughter—there were no “girl toys” at home, but Kimberly asked the Christian daycare Kai attended to hide any baby dolls from her as well. When Kai turned her T-shirts into skirts or insisted she was a girl, Kimberly spanked her. When Kai asked for a Minnie Mouse birthday cake, Kimberly bought her one with Mickey.

“No matter how much punishment this kid got, you couldn’t beat it out of her,” Kimberly said. “You couldn’t pray it out, I couldn’t cast it out.”

https://splinternews.com/she-was-an-ultraconservative-texas-christian-then-kai-1793859323

[–]DistantGlimmer 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes that was the case. Thank you. I am so horrified that people actually see this as anything progressive and not just child abuse and a new form of conversion therapy. No preschool kid can actually understand what "transgender" actually means. I think the transing of young GNC children is always abusive.