all 34 comments

[–]uwubunny 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. It's been the same conflict for the last fifty years. Nobody's said anything fundamentally new about it since Janice *Raymond. Transvestites want to pretend to be women for sexual kicks and invade their spaces, and women are justifiably creeped out and want them to leave. Men either don't care or see supporting the TVs as a plausibly sneaky way to get back at women. Doctors see it as a way to play God on little kids and show off their surgical skills.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Interesting. As a contrast, male-attracted trans men appear to be almost entirely a 21st century phenomenon.

I don't think the existence of trans people is inherently misogynistic. It's symptomatic of a society that causes gender nonconforming people a lot of grief and stress. We live in a rigid society with unhealthy ideas about gender to begin with. Non-fetishistic trans people are not to blame for what society puts on them. And even the fetishistic ones wouldn't have gotten that way in the first place if they hadn't been raised in an atmosphere that associated male femininity with shame.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I see where you are coming from their struggles wiith being GNC I totally get and sympathize with. Their insistence that they actually are women much less so. Too many of them are just obviously male socialized and gender-conforming people in feminine clothing. They have not actually questioned their masculinity or male privilege. That's what bothers me. Obviously there are many exceptions to this and there's the whole phenomenon of transmen that seems to come from a completely different place. I just wish we could move more towards a world where the ideal was just to reject gender rather than changing to a different one. It's so frustrating.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree. Part of the frustration is that we have to deal with the world as it is, not how we wish it could be.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Part of the frustration is that we have to deal with the world as it is, not how we wish it could be.

Yeah I agree I mean I'm not saying "we could abolish gender tomorrow if not for those damn TRAs!" but my frustration is rooted in that we seem to be regressing. I look back to how things were in the 80s and 90s and I think GNC people were way more accepted as just part of our sex maybe seen as a little "weird" and some people might assume if you were GNC you were homosexual but many people were starting to accept it. Now left-wing people are like "oh if you're GNC you must actually be the opposite gender identity and just in denial!" (or for some conservatives they're still just homophobic)." I hate that.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh yeah, things are definitely getting worse. I'm in total agreement there. My only solace is that the current atmosphere is simply not sustainable for the long term. Cracks are already beginning to appear. I just hope when the bubble bursts that all the peaceful, moderate trans people are not negatively affected.

[–]Lapis_Lazuli 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a contrast, male-attracted trans men appear to be almost entirely a 21st century phenomenon.

Well, there was Lou Reed (the OG autohomoerotic FtM) all the way back in the eighties. But inasmuch as trans activism is a straight people's sexual "rights" movement, it makes sense that males were the first beneficiaries and females came second.

[–]DogeWalker 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Another great historical perspective on this is Janice Raymond's book The Transsexual Empire, published 1979. The full pdf is available on her website: https://janiceraymond.com/

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Men play this competitive, hierarchy game with one another & if they are not careful they may get injured. But men can full on bully women without consequence. So that's what they do, especially the ones who aren't performing too well competing against other men. It feels good for them to finally be able to intimidate someone without repercussions. If you touch a male stranger whether accidentally or deliberately he might cripple you, but it's safe to touch a female stranger inappropriately. Nothing will happen. That's why they do it.

Trans-women would never pick on someone their own size. They are male & gender-nonconforming, so their existence obviously challenges our ideas of manhood. But for all the congratulations on how supposedly brave they are, in actual fact they are too cowardly to admit the truth. So instead they opt for challenging preconceived notions of womanhood, like... being female. They opt for being categorised as women, because they can easily bully their way into a women's movement without a problem. This is totally fine with our society, since any man who behaves the least bit effeminately was being called a woman this whole time anyway.

The only way men will stop going out of their way to mistreat women is if the consequences of which are at least on par with the consequences from mistreating a man. But then again, if a woman tries to teach a man a lesson, the man will try to teach her a lesson for trying to teach him a lesson by retaliating 10x harder. I don't see anyway out of this mess for women, short of, well, what the Scum manifesto suggested.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agree. I've often seen it said that men are the ones who are violent to them but women are the ones they target I think it is envy honestly.

[–]censorshipment 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Is Sheila Jeffreys mentioned? She's credited for predicting this would happen. https://youtu.be/YFG1bTDPCz4

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No mention of Jeffries . . .

(ETA) Cool vid, thanks!

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Wow, that was so bleak. ☹️

When I made it to the end, I felt like I should kill myself (not really, but there isn’t much I’ve read that made me feel worse for being a transsexual). I guess I naively thought things were better in the past.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I really had no idea transvestites had ever linked up with transsexuals. I always thought drag queens and transsexuals were together back then, but straight male transvestites were their own separate group.

In any case, none of us is responsible for the sins of others, past or present.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I thought the same . . . and it's really got me wondering how long of an arc AGP has had in all of this, and how deeply it's muddled the way try to discuss trans issues today.

(edited for grammar)

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I really had no idea transvestites had ever linked up with transsexuals.

Me neither, at least not like that. I knew that heterosexual crossdressers/tranvestites would sometimes become transsexuals later. I didn’t realize that heterosexual types were as prevalent or trying to be part of gay and lesbian communities back then.

I always thought drag queens and transsexuals were together back then

I did too. I wonder if the article just chose not to focus on it. I felt like most transsexuals (MTF) in the past at least grew up being seen as gay so would feel a sense connection with or be part the gay communities because of that.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Transsexuals were so vilified back then, it's hard to imagine there was widespread entitlement at the time.

It seems like they were definitely seen as male attracted. Were there female-attracted natal males in the 70s who actually medically transitioned? All the famous ones appear to have been the opposite. Maybe some wanted to, but never got the chance because of gatekeeping.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Were there female-attracted natal males in the 70s who actually medically transitioned? All the famous ones appear to have been the opposite.

I’m not sure. I also feel like the ones I’ve heard of were male-attracted or I had assumed that they were (I could be biased though since that’s how I am). Maybe female attracted ones were just really quiet about that. My understanding is that the standards at the time said that true transsexuals were naturally feminine and only liked men.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not totally clear on her use of that term whether she means AGPs or just GNC men crossdressing. From some of the ways it was used I assumed it was more talking about AGP. Crossdressing for sexual kink but I could be wrong.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

There's good and bad in all communities. I realize stuff like this certainly emphasizes the worst aspects and people in it. I found it interesting because I had certainly been under the impression that there was a time when most transsexuals were more reasonable as well so it was shocking to me how similar the criticisms were but I'm sure even then there were plenty of transsexuals just living their lives without negatively impacting women.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I had certainly been under the impression that there was a time when most transsexuals were more reasonable as well so it was shocking to me how similar the criticisms were

Me too! I’m hoping there were fewer extreme trans activist types, but the article didn’t make me feel that way, but it could be overly focused on the worst people.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think it's definitely (and validly) focused on the worst (and loudest) people. Consider . . . at that phase of activism, the Civil Rights Amendment was still very new. The 60s/early 70s saw multiple assassinations of politicians and activists and other types of outright lethal fuckery. I'm not sure there was a sense of the CRA being cemented in place, or whether or how far social equality would actually progress . . . Obergefell v. Hodges wasn't remotely on the radar then.

Knowing how tenuous it all was, how racism and homophobia and misogyny were still very much culturally entrenched regardless of policy . . . how many transsexuals would dare come out, even for political action, in such a high-risk climate? The phrase "coming out" didn't even enter the mainstream until the 80s. In some ways, it was another world.

(edit for grammar)

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It was a crazy and difficult time and I’m very grateful to have been born after all that.

Knowing how tenuous it all was, how racism and homophobia and misogyny were still very much culturally entrenched regardless of policy . . . how many transsexuals would dare come out, even for political action, in such a high-risk climate? The phrase "coming out" didn't even enter the mainstream until the 80s. In some ways, it was another world.

I feel like when there started being more trans visibility is when things started getting worse in terms of trans activists demanding access to spaces or demanding that people change their language to accommodate them. When the norm was for trans people to be more under the radar or even possibly not transitioning unless they had a reasonable chance of passing, it didn’t seem like it was causing as much harm. It could totally be my own bias though because that’s how I’ve lived and I might have felt differently if I had been dysphoric and 6’ tall. I feel like those are the trans people who really want society to change.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Would you say there is a close correlation in timelines with that tenor in trans activism, and the real takeoff of social media access and use? I guess I'm asking whether you think social media enabled the more extreme opinions in trans activism to dominate?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I feel like the timeline fits. I had already left trans communities by the time the shift occurred, so I’m not sure if I have any special insights. I was a little worried when I first heard trans people saying cis instead of biological because it seemed like something from those bizarre (in my view) Kate Bornstein or Rikki Ann Wilchins books. I didn’t really understand those when I was exposed to them (possibly due to my age at the time or relative lack of education) but I remember crazy statements like a penis being female (if the person whose it belong to was a woman). It was scary to watch that go from being like fringe and marginalized to the mainstream of trans activism.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Okay, yes . . . not to make the social media timeline into some kind of Theory of Everything, but I really think we're going to look back on it and think, "holy hell." I've been wondering about it along a couple of different lines of how thought/opinion/activism have developed, and one of my favorite podcasters (John McWhorter) has wondered aloud about it, too. So much has become so wildly polarized so quickly . . . it can't be coincidence.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Totally agree.

There are so many worrying trends and ideas that have grown so quickly through social media. I feel like maybe we just aren’t ready for this type of information sharing.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's been my feeling . . . like we're all a bunch of five-year-olds who've been given the keys to the CERN accelerator. I do see signs that we're learning as we go. Still . . . it's combative, unpredictable, sometimes completely vile. I don't think we envisioned the level of stress involved in such instant access to so many thoughts.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sadly, there's no way things were better in the past . . . not just the 1970s, bleaker still the farther back you go. Far bleaker. That's why we've got to move forward. What other options do we have?

(edit for grammar)

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You’re right. We have to move forward.

I guess I just always thought that transsexuals were more focused on being under the radar and just living our lives back then and like the predatory behavior and fetishism were mostly from this century.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But that might have been the case (logically) -- wrt the transsexual activists in the article, we can't know what percentage the activists represented, and having been fifty-some years ago, I think it's a safe bet that many were still very careful about their anonymity . . .

[–]theblackfleet 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you want a truer picture of men in dresses, you have to go back to the 70's and 80's to find accuracy, before it became the political point it is today. I don't trust much of the 'research' there is today on transgenderism aka men in dresses.

Radical feminists understood what was happening decades ago. They knew what men were up to.

What it says about the current issues isn't very much. Every radical feminist saw the writing on the wall. Men won't be satisfied until they wear our very skin, and that's what they're trying to do.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As for what it says about our current issues, the trans language and arguments presented in the article are eerily similar to those today, almost as if the words were preserved in amber.

[–]Lapis_Lazuli 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Increasingly, I have come to perceive a fundamental incompatibility between trans ideology and feminism. There are individual trans people who are perfectly decent, even exceptional (in a good way) human beings. But the notion that men are men and women are women because of how we think and feel is inimical to women's liberation.