Both: Do you believe there are sexual components to masculinity and femininity?

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[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Ha, part two.

I don’t feel like it’s entirely sexual for me.

That's interesting. I was under the impression it was just something you only entertained in your erotic life. But there are aspects you enjoy that are totally non-sexual?

If it was simple as an event happened and that triggered it then it would be obvious for researchers to find and it would vary a lot more.

Well, it might not just be one event or one incident. There are many things we don't know about the human mind and how our sexualities develop. People can go through the same experiences and come out with different desires and urges.

You don’t accept a woman can naturally enjoy expressing femininity but you do enjoy expressing masculinity.

I don't know if "enjoy" is the right word? It's just how I'm comfortable. I could not present feminine without wanting to kill myself. I realize that's extreme, but that's how I feel. But I don't take pleasure in cultivating my hair or clothes to be masculine. I just want to wear stuff that I'm comfortable in that doesn't draw undue attention to myself. I like to keep things simple.

Kind of a question I wonder. But seemingly I enjoy women more passionate than is assumed normal, than men like, than society deems normal.

Um, like how? I guess specifics would be good. I like to think I'm passionate in bed, but I don't think it makes me abnormal. My partner's last girlfriend was also really active in bed, so I don't think I'm abnormal in his experience either. We've talked about his previous partners. The first one was shy, so perhaps she fits more of your stereotype.

I don’t like it when I go to bed with a woman and I’m expected to be the dominant eternal initiator. For many that seems part of their sexual mindset. But I’m not matched with it. That’s commonly how it is. It took me a while to realise that. Of course being a crossdresser seems to signal to some now a sign of my uncontrolled criminal sexual desire. Which is not what they’re going to get.

To be honest, I have no idea what a crossdresser would be like in bed and have no stereotypes in my head about it. I don't think they'd necessarily be criminal or deviant. I might think they possibly like pretending to be the opposite sex? But even that might not be universal.

I like women who enjoy my femininity. It’s about matching, I want them to enjoy it. GC will take that as me imposing it. But it’s the opposite. I want honest inspired desire. In my experience it works better than way. That seems reasonable to me.

No argument from me. You deserve to have sexual partners who are turned on by your crossdressing. I don't think there's anything wrong with crossdressing in bed as long as more problematic elements (like sissification and forced feminization) don't come into play.

I get the theory but I think it’s just how it is. Most women whan that active male role and to be passive, it’s their validation. That’s my impression.

Validation, like how? That sounds problematic. You don't think women engage sexually for their own physical pleasure?

Making the moves. Tactile, sexual talk, lustful actions, sexual display, sexual fantasising, innuendo, sex game talk, dominant sexual talk.

Well, my partner and I both do all that stuff except for the dominant sexual talk because obviously neither of us likes BDSM.

They can do.

Yeesh, really? Even my partner's shy first girlfriend didn't act dead in bed. She was just more timid.

About a dozen, but I’m not really a good example. Probably fewer than average. So many sex roles are expected, I only learn a lot of this after living life. I realise how much overwhelming sexual desire is expected from men. As I said I was never “normal” so I live in a world where I have to learn second hand what people expect from men in bed.

Eh, well, I only have a sample size of one man, so it's not like I'm an expert. 12 women is a lot. But I don't know, I can't help but feel like maybe you're putting too much emphasis on these roles because it's your main insecurity. Leaving aside the crossdressing, which I acknowledge would be problematic for most straight women. I don't think it's that hard for a man to find a woman who is active in bed.

“Top 10 ways to spice up your sex life.” It’s banal stuff because the ideas are so common and they work.

Oh, that stuff. Well, I've done some of that, but not because I was bored. Just for variety. Erotic play doesn't have to be problematic. It doesn't have to be based in BDSM or power plays. My partner and I have done stuff like play with sex dice, sex toys, and have done role play. Those things can be wholesome, not depraved.

Not quite. But I’ve ended up in a situation where I do the work and I’m getting nothing much. Them doing the work doesn’t feel natural or work for them. Or ultimately me.

Well, I don't blame you. I wouldn't find that very pleasurable either. I feel like you need a good balance. At least for me. I would be bored just lying there doing nothing. And I'd be frustrated if I had to do everything.

Well of course. We all are obsessed with it and femininity here on this sub. One way or another.

Ha, well, you might be a little more obsessed than others.

Of course. Conforming people take it all for granted. As it would be.

Yeah, but an outer conforming appearance doesn't mean that a man is doing all the sexual stuff you seem to assume he's doing. My partner isn't sexually dominant and it's never been a hindrance to him.

Ha well I don’t want to bring him to it. It’s bad enough you’re reporting back you’re talking to self confessed crossdresser.

LOL, he knows that I talk about "gender stuff" online. I'm happy to pose specific questions if you have them. I did talk with him a little about masculinity. He doesn't seem to have any conflicts over it. The main thing for him was that his dad put a lot of pressure on him growing up and he didn't really feel like he lived up to his dad's ideal of the "perfect son." He's the oldest son. Not that my partner was ever effeminate, but that his dad didn't think he was enough of an academic or athletic achiever.

But in terms of sex, it doesn't seem like he's ever had a conflict. He's slept with three women. Me, and two prior girlfriends. He's handsome (I might be biased) and was popular with girls. He's a sweet guy, goofy, laid back, has a gentle nature. He's definitely not a dominant or a sadist and has never acted in that role. I asked him if he ever had any sexual insecurities, and he said not really, maybe his penis size when he was a teenager. He just wanted to know he was big enough to satisfy women. We're well matched in terms of libido and he says I'm his best sexual partner because of our chemistry and matching libidos.

I could ask him more if you wanted. I might also post a separate thread about whether sexual stereotypes of men and women are true.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

I always feel fetish is a way of ending thinking about it. Well, a fetish has an origin of some type. We can still think about it while acknowledging it's a fetish.

Do you think gay people expressing gender non conformity as part of their sexuality are fetishists?

What about common female sexual fantasies? Are they fetishists?

I don’t feel like it’s entirely sexual for me. That's interesting. I was under the impression it was just something you only entertained in your erotic life. But there are aspects you enjoy that are totally non-sexual?

Well I enjoy the female aesthetic. It’s as simple as I look at female fashion and think I’d like to express that. But there are other aspects to my life that possibly are non conforming. In this way I genuinely don’t know. I never quite fit a lot of masculine territories. I was always kind of split.

But being a progressive person I accepted that “gender norms weren’t actual things.” I was always in two minds about it. I accepted masculinity and femininity were things that might be natural but really not to be taken that seriously. But then found in life they really did matter. You can’t act like they didn’t. You will be judged on it. You can’t have people making assumptions.

For example, I never got into sport, especially team sports, especially the fanatical tribal support. I enjoyed lots of Reality television.

Now I didn’t think these were particularly gender non conforming at all. Only later I realised how much I’d be judged on these things. It was too “gay.” That’s how people judge things, even people who consider themselves liberal. A gay man can do those things but straight men cannot.

I also dressed probably not conservatively enough. I had to remove that. For example something as simple as tiger pink stripe skater shoes were questioned. I assumed that was acceptable as a casual punk fashion thing. Not extreme at all, as casual as ripped jeans. Was it my crossdressing affecting my choice? Was I choosing them as a form of displacement? I don’t know, I don’t think it’s extreme. But it would be commented on. So dressing down becomes important. Maybe I’m being policed more than others because people made assumptions.

Obviously men discussing sex was an issue. Their aggressive experiences and desires weren’t something I related to. I wasn’t someone they’d share porn with, that goes on.

So it doesn’t matter what I think, why it is, I have to act on gender norms. I have to try and conform.

If it was simple as an event happened and that triggered it then it would be obvious for researchers to find and it would vary a lot more.

Well, it might not just be one event or one incident. There are many things we don't know about the human mind and how our sexualities develop. People can go through the same experiences and come out with different desires and urges.

But I just don’t see the pattern in the world. If it was entirely down to experiences the incidences would vary a lot. It would be significant. But we see the same patterns the world over.

You don’t accept a woman can naturally enjoy expressing femininity but you do enjoy expressing masculinity. I don't know if "enjoy" is the right word? It's just how I'm comfortable. I could not present feminine without wanting to kill myself. I realize that's extreme, but that's how I feel.

That does sound extreme. I think most women would find that quite alien. Even if they don’t think you don’t have the right to reject it.

But I don't take pleasure in cultivating my hair or clothes to be masculine. I just want to wear stuff that I'm comfortable in that doesn't draw undue attention to myself. I like to keep things simple.

This is the masculine as neutrality.

What about formal occasions?

Kind of a question I wonder. But seemingly I enjoy women more passionate than is assumed normal, than men like, than society deems normal. Um, like how? I guess specifics would be good.

I’m sure I’d given a description before.

“Making the moves. Tactile, sexual talk, lustful actions, sexual display, sexual fantasising, innuendo, sex game talk, dominant sexual talk.”

Pinning, forceful kissing, grabbing without asking or context.

I like to think I'm passionate in bed, but I don't think it makes me abnormal. My partner's last girlfriend was also really active in bed, so I don't think I'm abnormal in his experience either. We've talked about his previous partners. The first one was shy, so perhaps she fits more of your stereotype.

Sexually passive women are far more common.

That does not mean they are without desire. They desire that “dominant male” form. Don’t blame the messenger.

To be honest, I have no idea what a crossdresser would be like in bed and have no stereotypes in my head about it.

Ha well I’d think it wouldn’t be your thing.

Here’s a thing that’s done, putting on make up on each other. It’s intimate and sensual. Both creating visual pleasure and incense physical intimacy.

But what about sexually passive men?

Does that mean anything to you?

I like women who enjoy my femininity. It’s about matching, I want them to enjoy it. GC will take that as me imposing it. But it’s the opposite. I want honest inspired desire. In my experience it works better than way. That seems reasonable to me. No argument from me. You deserve to have sexual partners who are turned on by your crossdressing. I don't think there's anything wrong with crossdressing in bed as long as more problematic elements (like sissification and forced feminization) don't come into play.

A lot of that seems over the top. And a lot of it looks like “forcing” to enjoy something taboo that both parties enjoy.

I get the theory but I think it’s just how it is. Most women want that active male role and to be passive, it’s their validation. That’s my impression. Validation, like how? That sounds problematic. You don't think women engage sexually for their own physical pleasure?

Their pleasure is from being the “target,” the “prize,” the figure of maximum desire.

That IS their sexual pleasure.

I mean what do you think these women are enjoying about it?

Have you asked other women about this?

They can do. Yeesh, really? Even my partner's shy first girlfriend didn't act dead in bed. She was just more timid.

Have you discussed this with other women?

Eh, well, I only have a sample size of one man, so it's not like I'm an expert. 12 women is a lot.

If that number is higher than average it likely comes from dissatisfaction on my side. Not finding compatible partners. Which is understandable.

But I don't know, I can't help but feel like maybe you're putting too much emphasis on these roles because it's your main insecurity. Leaving aside the crossdressing, which I acknowledge would be problematic for most straight women. I don't think it's that hard for a man to find a woman who is active in bed.

I think you might be underestimating how rare it is.

“Top 10 ways to spice up your sex life.” It’s banal stuff because the ideas are so common and they work. Oh, that stuff. Well, I've done some of that, but not because I was bored. Just for variety. Erotic play doesn't have to be problematic. It doesn't have to be based in BDSM or power plays. My partner and I have done stuff like play with sex dice, sex toys, and have done role play. Those things can be wholesome, not depraved.

But the mild BDSM is common correct?

Well of course. We all are obsessed with it and femininity here on this sub. One way or another. Ha, well, you might be a little more obsessed than others.

Well of course I hope so, or I’ve been doing it wrong.

Of course. Conforming people take it all for granted. As it would be. Yeah, but an outer conforming appearance doesn't mean that a man is doing all the sexual stuff you seem to assume he's doing.

Oh I agree.

There is only an indirect relationship.

My partner isn't sexually dominant and it's never been a hindrance to him.

But he isn’t sexually passive either.

Ha well I don’t want to bring him to it. It’s bad enough you’re reporting back you’re talking to a self confessed crossdresser.

LOL, he knows that I talk about "gender stuff" online. I'm happy to pose specific questions if you have them. I did talk with him a little about masculinity. He doesn't seem to have any conflicts over it. The main thing for him was that his dad put a lot of pressure on him growing up and he didn't really feel like he lived up to his dad's ideal of the "perfect son." He's the oldest son. Not that my partner was ever effeminate, but that his dad didn't think he was enough of an academic or athletic achiever.

The male role of “doer” remains strong.

It’s like that thing about “women have to be, men have to do.” Which both have issues.

But in terms of sex, it doesn't seem like he's ever had a conflict. He's slept with three women. Me, and two prior girlfriends. He's handsome (I might be biased) and was popular with girls. He's a sweet guy, goofy, laid back, has a gentle nature. He's definitely not a dominant or a sadist and has never acted in that role. I asked him if he ever had any sexual insecurities, and he said not really, maybe his penis size when he was a teenager. He just wanted to know he was big enough to satisfy women. We're well matched in terms of libido and he says I'm his best sexual partner because of our chemistry and matching libidos.

Well I’m happy for you in a sincere way. I’m obviously not the poly kind.

I could ask him more if you wanted. I might also post a separate thread about whether sexual stereotypes of men and women are true.

That’s a good question.

Although I can enjoy this sub it can be less, general. Less proportional. The responses are going to be biased. Even my position is very rare.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Do you think gay people expressing gender non conformity as part of their sexuality are fetishists?

No? I think the fetish in question is getting aroused by the idea of wearing female clothing. Or male clothing. I don't think gay men or lesbians typically have that as part of their sexuality.

What about common female sexual fantasies? Are they fetishists?

Depends what it is. I consider BDSM a harmful kink/fetish. If they can't get off without imagining that, then yes, they are fetishists.

Well I enjoy the female aesthetic. It’s as simple as I look at female fashion and think I’d like to express that.

Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. Would you put on a non-revealing dress and go out in public without feeling any hint of arousal about it?

Only later I realised how much I’d be judged on these things. It was too “gay.” That’s how people judge things, even people who consider themselves liberal. A gay man can do those things but straight men cannot.

He can, as long as he doesn't give a shit about what others think. I feel like you're constrained a lot by society's views. Leaving aside the cross dressing, a man can have feminine hobbies. He just needs to own them and not allow other people to rule his life. If I let society determine those things for me, I'd have a very unhappy existence. And I know it's easier for GNC women, but we still get shit. It's not easy, just easier.

So it doesn’t matter what I think, why it is, I have to act on gender norms. I have to try and conform.

Dude, you seriously don't. Dress how you want, act how you want. If the men around you are assholes, find better men to be friends with. Or be friends with women. I don't know what country you're in or how conservative your town or city is, but it should be possible to find likeminded people. Even if not totally likeminded, at least tolerant people.

That does sound extreme. I think most women would find that quite alien. Even if they don’t think you don’t have the right to reject it.

Well, yeah, that's what makes me GNC. I was like that at 3 years old. I still don't know why. My theory is that some people, both male and female, are born less malleable and are unable to conform to society's gendering. You only notice those people because they're at the extreme end of the spectrum for their sex.

What about formal occasions?

I dislike having to dress formal, but I wear a button down shirt and dress pants. I can get away with not wearing a suit jacket and tie because I'm female. I hate ties. I might wear a sport jacket if it was really formal.

I’m sure I’d given a description before. “Making the moves. Tactile, sexual talk, lustful actions, sexual display, sexual fantasising, innuendo, sex game talk, dominant sexual talk.” Pinning, forceful kissing, grabbing without asking or context.

A lot of that is just passion. Some of it I find problematic. But most of it is benign. You've never had a so-called "normal" woman grab you or initiate a kiss or something?

Sexually passive women are far more common. That does not mean they are without desire. They desire that “dominant male” form. Don’t blame the messenger.

I don't believe that's really the case. I still think your vision on that is skewed.

Here’s a thing that’s done, putting on make up on each other. It’s intimate and sensual. Both creating visual pleasure and incense physical intimacy.

Ha, definitely not my thing. I hate makeup. I wouldn't ever put it on myself and I don't like the way it looks on other people, male or female. But nothing wrong with people who like that. It's not inherently problematic, especially for males.

But what about sexually passive men? Does that mean anything to you?

Not really. At one point you said you like to have women do things to you, but you also said you like to do things to your female partners. So it's not like you're just lying there like a dead fish, right? You do stuff, so you can't be that passive. Unless you mean something more extreme, like just lying on your back avoiding PIV. That would cause a problem for most straight women, myself included.

Their pleasure is from being the “target,” the “prize,” the figure of maximum desire. That IS their sexual pleasure.

Wow, that's demeaning and insulting. You don't think women have genuine sexual desire of their own? That's crazy and totally not in line with normal thought processes in my opinion. You're saying the only thing women like about sex is being a fucking object? Again, that's so insulting.

I mean what do you think these women are enjoying about it?

About sex? Lust, desire, wanting, closeness, intimacy, sensuality, orgasms, love, all the normal things people like about having sex. Because the physical sensations are overwhelmingly powerful and pleasurable. There's nothing like sex, if you've had really good sex, which I think I have. It's on another level. You think men are the only people who feel genuine sexual desire for another person and another person's body?

Have you asked other women about this?

Not in person, but I was a regular for years on AskWomen, and they talked about sex frequently.

If that number is higher than average it likely comes from dissatisfaction on my side. Not finding compatible partners. Which is understandable.

I didn't mean a lot as in promiscuous, it's probably fairly average for a man. I just meant a lot in comparison to me.

I think you might be underestimating how rare it is.

I don't think so. If 2/3 of my partner's girlfriends were active, how rare can it be? Remember that he's very gender conforming. Unless you think he's abnormal just by virtue of being with me.

But the mild BDSM is common correct?

Not for me. Not for everyone. You can do that stuff without involving BDSM.

But he isn’t sexually passive either.

I'm still not entirely sure how you define passive. He's really not very strong-willed in terms of having to have a certain thing in bed. He kind of just rolls with it. We both do. It's not like I'm dominating him either. I'd say our primary focus is each other's pleasure. And passion. We have all kinds of sex, including quite vigorous sex. But he'd probably be equally happy with lazy sex or me doing cowgirl all the time if that's what I wanted. But from my point of view, that would be boring. I like different positions. I don't think passivity has anything to do with what position you're in, it's more of a mindset. A passive person is not engaged. My partner and I are both engaged.

Well I’m happy for you in a sincere way. I’m obviously not the poly kind.

Thanks, I actually have talked to him a lot about sex because I've been so insecure about aspects of it over the years. I feel like I know him pretty well sexually. There's always a chance he could be lying or hiding something, but after more than 6 years together, I don't think that's the case. I have to trust that what he's told me is the truth. I know his actions so far have never betrayed anything problematic to me.

That’s a good question. Although I can enjoy this sub it can be less, general. Less proportional. The responses are going to be biased. Even my position is very rare.

Probably, and we have more LGB people here than the average. But it still might generate interesting responses.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

No, but if the entire female sex is innately inferior, then there is no point to feminism.

I don’t see this as thinking the female sex is inferior. Aggression does not mean better.

It’s a tool that can be useful or destructive for other purposes.

There are some that believe in the flatter bell curve for men but really when I think about it. It could all come down to that aggression. Which can also be self destructive.

So your belief is just like Red Pill,

I can see the problem with that and I don’t know what the answer to that is. Red pill is an extreme form of it.

But I do see the repeated lighter forms of it in regular life. This is what often radical feminism is complaining about and I agree it is there in subtle forms. Patriarchal norms but it is not absolute. I don’t think it’s absolute.

What do you make of these credit academic reports.

Women's Sexual Fantasies – The Latest Scientific Research

Fantasy does not mean they wish these desires fulfilled.

But they pattern of desire for sex and power remains very strong.

Everything that is natural is not necessarily a moral good. I think that’s one of my starting points.

I think I was born with an inability to conform to gendered expectations. To me, “born with an inability to conform to gendered expectations” isn’t entirely accurate. That isn’t escaping gender. That is embracing the gender norms of the opposite sex.

As such, you could certainly raise little girls to embrace neutrality and most of them would.

I don’t see it as being technically possible. That isn’t how humans are. I think there are natural biological tendencies within humans plus a natural desire to create gendered things.

What's your social circle like?

Of course I’ve lived a life and at times been very social. Known and sought out many men and women of different flavours.

Specifically the straight crossdresser community is very thin. The community is very androphilic. It is often very based around sex with men and other gnc men. That’s super awkward as a straight man not attracted to other crossdressers. Online I got a lot of attention from men, even after saying I’m straight. There are a lot of assumptions. There can be an assumption that a straight crossdresser is a liar. Back to that pattern of gnc men being either gay or perverts.

I have been in circles entirely of women, falling into a kind of honorary member. But it’s not sexual. I mean that in a bad way. We were not seeing each other as sexual figures because I was not doing the masculinity they prefer and they were not being the aggressive female figures I prefer.

I have been male circles and I don’t quite fit the casual masculinity of them. Certainly not after they are aware of my crossdressing.

There is a common refrain of “don’t let your crossdressing/sexuality” become your whole identity and I can see the good reasons and logic for that. But then you suppress and end up being a person that “springs” it on others. You drift into the closet only to find yourself around people who are not accepting.

I realise now I ought to have placed it more central to my life. I accepted it when I was very young but that acceptance became internal and not external enough.

Where I do find it more acceptable is the kink community, the fetish clubs. That is where crossdressing is more than tolerated, a straight crossdresser has a place not as part of gay culture but as a person outside sexual norms. There are also women there who appreciate gender non conformity in men and relationships.

I had initially gone to these clubs when I was younger but drifted away as I got older because they were too small, cliquey, badly attended and amateur. I was also groped by men there. That pattern is strong.

However in the last few years I returned to find the clubs better organised, better policed, friendly and well attended. I wish that had been the case when I was younger. I find it a place of tolerance of people not criminal but outside regular norms of different sexual types.

There are certainly women there who are dressing for sex in a way that turns themselves on.

Well, I feel you. They keep lumping GNC women like me in with trans. Which is why so many of us are fleeing womanhood.

Well obviously I think a “failed woman” is the wrong way of looking at it. I’d see you as embracing masculinity. That does not mean you need to embrace a transman identity. But that does not mean you can disconnect masculinity from men.

No? I think the fetish in question is getting aroused by the idea of wearing female clothing.

But their gender expression is connected to their sexuality? There has to be some relationship.

The gay male scene has plenty of sexualized ultra masculinity that is linked to pleasure.

You do see women who see their femininity as part of their sexuality. It does put them in the mood.

I consider BDSM a harmful kink/fetish. If they can't get off without imagining that, then yes, they are fetishists.

But a lot of this is super common. The bdsm scene in my opinion is people theatrically expressing extremes forms of this.

Or of course mild gender non conforming forms.

Well I enjoy the female aesthetic. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. Would you put on a non-revealing dress and go out in public without feeling any hint of arousal about it?

Hint? It depends on what you mean.

I’m not demanding pronouns or a different name or anything like that. I just like female appreciation of my expression. It puts me in the mood and puts the right woman in the mood.

Really that’s what a lot of gender expression is about IMHO.

He can, as long as he doesn't give a shit about what others think. He just needs to own them and not allow other people to rule his life.

I don’t think you’re getting how harsh men are policed on gender.

Even small things will be judged by even liberal people. Tolerance does not mean people don’t act on it.

A man has to constantly police himself, especially a straight man.

If I let society determine those things for me, I'd have a very unhappy existence. I do agree gnc women do get a rough ride. But the line is very tight for straight men. You can see the line in regular pop culture.

Dude, you seriously don't. Dress how you want, act how you want.

This is my experience after hanging with men and women. This is what I see. I have experienced enough to know what they believe and what they react to.

A lot of that is just passion. Some of it I find problematic. But most of it is benign. You've never had a so-called "normal" woman grab you or initiate a kiss or something?

I have had women grab me at times. Pinch my bum, hand down my trousers.

But generally I think the gender norms hold in patterns.

Sexually passive women are far more common. That does not mean they are without desire. I don't believe that's really the case.

I think the data points to that on average.

At one point you said you like to have women do things to you, but you also said you like to do things to your female partners. So it's not like you're just lying there like a dead fish, right?

Ha yes no, I can see it might come across that way. More that any action by me is welcomed and preferred. That they don’t feel action from them is enjoyable, it is entirely not for their pleasure. Any action from me means they don’t need to reciprocate. To the point that all the action and desire comes from me. As I said this is not true of all women. Just a general bias.

Compatibility is the issue.

Though growing up I did lack the PIV obsession that seemed to be the norm and expected from me as a boy. I wasn’t obsessed with sticking it in. Is that relevant? I still don’t know. All part of the unusual sexual behaviour.

You don't think women have genuine sexual desire of their own?

I wouldn’t characterise it like that. I think it is a desire. I don’t think sexual desire is entirely about that.

I mean what do you think these women are enjoying about it? Lust, desire, wanting, all the normal things people like about having sex.

But the women who are sexually passive?

If 2/3 of my partner's girlfriends were active, how rare can it be? Remember that he's very gender conforming. Unless you think he's abnormal just by virtue of being with me.

By being with you he is experiencing something statistically unusual.

Just as a woman with a male crossdresser would be.

I still think there are on average differences between men and women in sexual behaviour and desires.

I think we both believe that but we disagree on the causes.

I'm still not entirely sure how you define passive. He's really not very strong-willed in terms of having to have a certain thing in bed.

You both sound active.

I’d add rarely initiating sex but expecting it, is passive. As if initiating it, is a turn off, at the same time being annoyed if the other person does not initiate it.

I know I respond more to active pursuit than my active pursuit. It took me some time to realise this. Just not being wired the same way as the average straight man.

That’s a wider point I’d make. I do see trans identities. I do see elements of myself as more accepted as female. But after looking a long time at the subject I remain seeing myself as a man. I don’t see myself as a woman sexually. I see myself as a crossdresser sexually. That is who I identify with no matter how good or bad that figure is. I can’t escape that.

I’m not demanding some extreme BDSM thing, mild is fine. I find some things women seem to want on /r/sex too extreme. Aggressive passion and appreciation of my expression is what I want.

I got it down to one! lol

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

God, I knew it had been a while since you posted this, but I didn't realize it was two months. Just FYI, I haven't forgotten our conversation. Still planning to reply as soon as I've got some time.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ha yes. It has been some time. I do catch myself thinking about our debates at times.

The debates on GCdebatesQT always felt more like the actual debates society ought to be having than any debates in the media and elsewhere.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Ha, 4 months late, but I'm finally responding.

I don’t see this as thinking the female sex is inferior. Aggression does not mean better.

If one sex is aggressive towards the other sex, and that sex is presumed to enjoy being subordinate to them, that's inferiority. I don't see any way around that.

Women's Sexual Fantasies – The Latest Scientific Research

What do I make of this? Trauma from patriarchy, porn, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and childhood or adolescent exposure to inappropriate media.

Everything that is natural is not necessarily a moral good. I think that’s one of my starting points.

Sure, we would both agree on that. I just disagree that it is in any way natural for girls and women to want to be dominated and abused.

Specifically the straight crossdresser community is very thin. The community is very androphilic. It is often very based around sex with men and other gnc men. That’s super awkward as a straight man not attracted to other crossdressers. Online I got a lot of attention from men, even after saying I’m straight. There are a lot of assumptions. There can be an assumption that a straight crossdresser is a liar. Back to that pattern of gnc men being either gay or perverts.

Huh, that's interesting. Do you think the straight crossdresser community has been adversely affected by the increasing popularity of transition? I was under the impression the majority of crossdressers were straight, while most drag queens were gay. But maybe crossdressers have fallen by the wayside. Like Eddie Izzard. He used to be just a regular transvestite. Now he says he's trans.

There is a common refrain of “don’t let your crossdressing/sexuality” become your whole identity and I can see the good reasons and logic for that. But then you suppress and end up being a person that “springs” it on others. You drift into the closet only to find yourself around people who are not accepting. I realise now I ought to have placed it more central to my life. I accepted it when I was very young but that acceptance became internal and not external enough.

Do you think you would prefer a world where you could crossdress 24/7 and have it be totally accepted? Or do you prefer it only coming out in certain scenarios that you are able to preselect for? It sounds like it's more than a casual thing for you, but society doesn't allow you to express it.

Where I do find it more acceptable is the kink community, the fetish clubs. That is where crossdressing is more than tolerated, a straight crossdresser has a place not as part of gay culture but as a person outside sexual norms. There are also women there who appreciate gender non conformity in men and relationships.

I can see that. I have a hard time thinking about fetish clubs without feeling a sense of terror about the people involved in them. But I suppose for those who feel cast out from regular society, it would feel more like a refuge.

There are certainly women there who are dressing for sex in a way that turns themselves on.

Uh, I would assume so, since it's a fetish club. If they've got a fetish for leather or latex or something, dressing like that in a sexual environment would turn them on. That's why they go there in the first place.

Well obviously I think a “failed woman” is the wrong way of looking at it. I’d see you as embracing masculinity. That does not mean you need to embrace a transman identity. But that does not mean you can disconnect masculinity from men.

I don't see why not. Masculine women have a long history. There have always been women who preferred to "live like men." There would be more of them, I believe, if femininity was not forced on girls so heavily. You have to be strong and unusual to reject femininity as an adult woman, however tolerant society is (or was) about prepubescent tomboys.

But their gender expression is connected to their sexuality? There has to be some relationship.

Not everyone has a fetish like you do. A butch lesbian woman can dress in men's clothes without it being sexual for her. As for why she's butch, you'd have to ask her. I wouldn't speak on a lesbian's behalf. All I can say is that my gender expression is not connected to my sexuality, as far as I can tell.

But a lot of this is super common. The bdsm scene in my opinion is people theatrically expressing extremes forms of this.

Right, but if someone is unable to be aroused without imagining BDSM, that's a fetish. BDSM was never considered standard. Most people, even if they have "kinks," can still enjoy vanilla sex.

I just like female appreciation of my expression. It puts me in the mood and puts the right woman in the mood.

So it's the anticipation of being seen and appreciated by women that is the draw? It doesn't sound like it's a non-sexual activity for you then. Would you go to a park wearing like a sundress even if you knew there would not be any women there to admire you in it? Have you ever been dressed in women's clothing in public and not felt even partially aroused by the possibility? No judgment here, by the way. I'm just curious.

Really that’s what a lot of gender expression is about IMHO.

Uh, beg to disagree. Most women and men are not aroused by wearing ordinary clothing regardless of their orientation.

I don’t think you’re getting how harsh men are policed on gender.

No, I get it. But it's possible to find spaces that are more open. Especially in this day and age, right? Trans women walk right down the street in most cities and towns and no one accosts them.

Even small things will be judged by even liberal people. Tolerance does not mean people don’t act on it.

Sure, but who cares if they judge? I know people judge me. As long as they're not assaulting me, they can think what they want.

A man has to constantly police himself, especially a straight man.

People on the street don't know if you're gay or straight, transgender or simply a crossdresser. If a trans woman can be herself in public, why can't you? Do you think maybe you're held back by fear of social disapproval?

I have had women grab me at times. Pinch my bum, hand down my trousers.

Right, and it's a normal thing for a woman to grab a guy's ass or grab his junk. In a consensual context, of course. It's not some weird thing. You may think women do it less often, but they still do it.

Though growing up I did lack the PIV obsession that seemed to be the norm and expected from me as a boy. I wasn’t obsessed with sticking it in. Is that relevant? I still don’t know. All part of the unusual sexual behaviour.

Most guys are obsessed with sticking it in any available orifice, it seems. But you do enjoy PIV? It's not like you won't use your penis during sex?

But the women who are sexually passive?

I believe very few women are so passive that all they want to do is lie there. But even if they do, they're still enjoying stuff like intimacy, caressing, kissing, touching, and the physical sensations of sex.

By being with you he is experiencing something statistically unusual.

Sure, but do you think he's not a normal man in a sexual sense? I've asked him about this myself, actually, since I used to be so worried he would be judged negatively because of me. He says the way he sees it is that I'm a woman and he's a man and anyone who has a problem with that is just ignorant. I believe him. He's never shown any hesitance about us. I was always the one worried about what people would think.

You both sound active.

I'd say so.

I’d add rarely initiating sex but expecting it, is passive. As if initiating it, is a turn off, at the same time being annoyed if the other person does not initiate it.

Yeah, that's definitely neither of us.

I know I respond more to active pursuit than my active pursuit. It took me some time to realise this. Just not being wired the same way as the average straight man.

You like being seduced, I guess. Eh, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But at the same time, I don't get playing elaborate games. Like if I want sex, I'm not going to wait around for my partner to mention it.

That’s a wider point I’d make. I do see trans identities. I do see elements of myself as more accepted as female. But after looking a long time at the subject I remain seeing myself as a man. I don’t see myself as a woman sexually. I see myself as a crossdresser sexually. That is who I identify with no matter how good or bad that figure is. I can’t escape that.

Well, that's fair. I don't see any reason for you not to be a crossdresser. You're not negatively affecting anyone else. You're involving consenting partners. I don't think any BDSM-related stuff is healthy, but it doesn't sound like you go overboard with it. And you recognize biological reality. You're a man, even if you consider yourself a sexually unusual one.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Part 1

Ha, 4 months late, but I'm finally responding.

Hey. yes it’s been some time and that’s fine. I wrote this earlier before Christmas then went back to review it.

Back to two parts. Written up in google docs.

If one sex is aggressive towards the other sex, and that sex is presumed to enjoy being subordinate to them, that's inferiority. I don't see any way around that.

I wouldn’t see sexual aggression is a completely illigimate category. It covers being sexually pro active, provacative and initiating within a relationship.

I think it does also cover grey areas, mild bdsm and fantasy.

I also think it correlates with other masculine tropes.

What do I make of this? Trauma from patriarchy, porn, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and childhood or adolescent exposure to inappropriate media.

But you see people can enjoy bdsm without having experienced any of that?

Do you think all mild bdsm people are morally wrong? I guess you do.

But I totally get the political problem with it and I totally understand the gendered issue with it.

However I can’t ignore the popularity of it with women. Honestly it’s just everywhere and in the subtexts and fantasies.

I think for many women it’s a case of “Why would I argue against a level of it I like? That’s what I want. I know myself and I like that. I like the fantasy fiction, I like the idea of that and that man. In fact not being it means being unhappy or being something that doesn’t work for me.”

I expect you probably have debated women who advocate it many times. Do you think they are all in bad relationships?

Huh, that's interesting. Do you think the straight crossdresser community has been adversely affected by the increasing popularity of transition?

My guess is the crossdresser community is feeling squeezed from both sides.

There can be a perception from the trans community of “just transition, stop being an egg.”

There is also anger at “erotic crossdressers.” I have issues with some of that rhetoric.

You know the old jokes about the trans hierarchy? “Trannier than thou”

But the trans community is more likely to be positive to the crossdresser than the gc side.

There is increasing anger at the trans community. Crossdressers are caught in the middle. Maybe an identity that isn’t going to survive? Hmmn I think it will carry on. For the same reasons it exists. There are still going to be gnc people that don’t feel transition is correct for them.

I was under the impression the majority of crossdressers were straight, while most drag queens were gay. But maybe crossdressers have fallen by the wayside.

From the stats I’ve seen the majority are same sex attracted. However the plurality are heterosexual. I’ve seen a study with something like 40% het, 30% bi, 30% gay. That’s why the stats come out like this. Most can be married and most can be attracted to men and it can still be true. The old crossdresser societies had a ban on gay men. This was controversial but you can see the issue.

Drag is somewhat confusingly a mixed role, theatrical performance and engaging in femininity. Depending on the person.

Like Eddie Izzard. He used to be just a regular transvestite. Now he says he's trans.

Yeah they’re a bit all over the place.

Funnily enough, Izzard is one of those crossdressers I disagreed with in a similar way to Contrapoints. When they stated “It’s not women’s clothes, they’re mine.” Implying it’s only fashion, nothing to do with gender. I think they are being disingenuous. They are selecting for gender when they crossdress. I’d just say you are acting on gender when you crossdress. Why lie? It seems only for gender theory reasons.

I say yes it is a riff on femininity and femininity is connected to women. Doesn’t make me a woman even if I think that connection is natural. But that’s me.

Certainly both GC and the trans side might look on a crossdresser in the same way and say “Admit it you’re trans.” Even if it’s from different agendas. But I think there are larger dangers in that position and it’s not helpful for either side. Even if I think gnc people are related to trans people.

Do you think you would prefer a world where you could crossdress 24/7 and have it be totally accepted? Or do you prefer it only coming out in certain scenarios that you are able to preselect for?

I’d prefer if I could do it whenever I like and for it not to matter. Not be so politically and socially fraught. But it is, so that’s that.

What would change if it was different? I would dress more for some occasions. I would casually dress other times. Remember I said I used to dress and looked too gay. Being too sensual in appearance is socially dangerous for a straight man. But it probably comes out in other ways. Like having a suit too colour co ordinated. You cannot be too precious as a straight man. Straight men can’t be seen too much with gay men. All those things.

And again all the minor sexual things about desiring dominant women are not gender conforming. You can’t express that desire. It isn’t represented and it’s not acceptable to show.

It’s a rare thing like /r/rolereversal. You know that subreddit?

Where I do find it more acceptable is the kink community, the fetish clubs. That is where crossdressing is more than tolerated, a straight crossdresser has a place not as part of gay culture but as a person outside sexual norms. There are also women there who appreciate gender non conformity in men and relationships.

I can see that. I have a hard time thinking about fetish clubs without feeling a sense of terror about the people involved in them. But I suppose for those who feel cast out from regular society, it would feel more like a refuge.

Sure. I understand. Last time I went I enjoyed them because they accept and embrace all kinds of sexuality, not all mine. All kinds of sensuality. It is not all bdsm. Being with women who appreciate femininity in a man is so rare.

But that does not mean you can disconnect masculinity from men.

I don't see why not. Masculine women have a long history.

Because men are naturally going to be the majority of people interested in expressing masculinity.

Men are going to have advantages in many cultural expressions of masculinity.

But of course I’m far from thinking this ought to be enforced as a moral requirement.

There have always been women who preferred to "live like men." There would be more of them, I believe, if femininity was not forced on girls so heavily. You have to be strong and unusual to reject femininity as an adult woman, however tolerant society is (or was) about prepubescent tomboys.

More yes. I’m not sure about equal. I’m just not sure it’s as easy as that.

But their gender expression is connected to their sexuality? There has to be some relationship.

Not everyone has a fetish like you do.

Ha well fetish, that's the question.

A butch lesbian woman can dress in men's clothes without it being sexual for her. As for why she's butch, you'd have to ask her. I wouldn't speak on a lesbian's behalf. All I can say is that my gender expression is not connected to my sexuality, as far as I can tell.

Right but masculinity isn’t a perfect inversion of femininity. It’s those great questions of sex and sexuality. Do men enjoy their masculinity? What is the relationship exactly?

Masculine gender expression seems strongly linked to social roles.

Right, but if someone is unable to be aroused without imagining BDSM, that's a fetish. BDSM was never considered standard. Most people, even if they have "kinks," can still enjoy vanilla sex.

I think people have all kinds of fantasies during vanilla sex. That is super common and bdsm fantasies are super common.

I just like female appreciation of my expression. It puts me in the mood and puts the right woman in the mood. So it's the anticipation of being seen and appreciated by women that is the draw?

That sounds perfectly normal aspects of sexuality.

I don’t think being a crossdresser is strictly normal but I don’t think it's completely disconnected from the rest of sexuality going on.

It doesn't sound like it's a non-sexual activity for you then.

I think that’s an uncharitable view on it. Lots of people do and act things in public they find sexual. I don’t think people should sexually expose themselves in public. Sexuality involves display.

We probably do disagree on the role of masculinity and femininity in sexual display.

The women who strongly embrace “femininity” to degrees we both might find absurd likely do connect their sexuality to their gender expression.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey, theory, still around? I didn't realize I never responded to your last few messages.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ah yes I LIVE lol

How are you doing worried19?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Part 2

Would you go to a park wearing like a sundress even if you knew there would not be any women there to admire you in it?

Yes.

Most crossdressers are likely closeted.

Have you ever been dressed in women's clothing in public and not felt even partially aroused by the possibility? No judgment here, by the way. I'm just curious.

The possibility?

I should say part of this is the mystery to me. I can’t say for sure what is going on in other people’s minds. I can’t tell if I am tuning in on femininity the way some women do.

The women who say “I get drag queens, I like to dress like a drag queen. If I was a man I’d be a drag queen ” The ones who are attracted to surgery to exaggerate their sexual characteristics. Their sexuality seems to be connected to that. They seem like the extreme end of a spectrum.

Am I as a crossdresser acting on the same triggers? I think that possibly might be the case even if I don’t believe in that kind of surgery or that kind of extreme lifestyle.

Is regular femininity a moderate form of that?

Then most men are tuning in on a moderate form of masculinity.

Are you tuning in on masculinity the same way men do? I figure you probably are doing something like that.

But it is my position to think there is something separate from sex that people are tuning in on. Naturally related but a separate thing.

Really that’s what a lot of gender expression is about IMHO. Uh, beg to disagree. Most women and men are not aroused by wearing ordinary clothing regardless of their orientation.

Certainly not straight men. Certainly some women are closer to it.

I don’t think you’re getting how harsh men are policed on gender.

No, I get it. But it's possible to find spaces that are more open. Especially in this day and age, right? Trans women walk right down the street in most cities and towns and no one accosts them.

I think passing trans women have an easier time.

I’d say the category of “non passing” or “crossdressers” are rare in public. They are rare because of the social cost. Any expression is “outing” yourself. That immediately places you in a category that will often be socially exiled. That is my experience.

Even small things will be judged by regular liberal people. Tolerance does not mean people don’t act on the difference.

Does that mean I’d be tempted to become the transwoman in order to get by? I would be a “hon.” I am dysphoric about some things but I still don’t see myself as a woman. I feel like that would not be me. You could say I feel my gender identity is male with that female gender expression, and even role.

Sure, but who cares if they judge? I know people judge me. As long as they're not assaulting me, they can think what they want.

It matters in relationships, friends, workplace politics, services.

I am well aware of what people say.

People on the street don't know if you're gay or straight, transgender or simply a crossdresser. If a trans woman can be herself in public, why can't you? Do you think maybe you're held back by fear of social disapproval?

Of course. I’ve lost friends from people simply knowing.

I find the world is full of people who say they are understanding and liberal then come out with very illiberal attitudes on something like this.

I don’t really want to have to get into debates on it with everyone. To have to justify my existence with every other person. Ha as much as I find the topic interesting.

Like, here’s an issue, merely discussing feminism in some ways can lead you down paths that can be too revealing. Justifying equality in regular political conversations on feminism.

A lot of the role of males in those liberal circles can be either brocialist saviour, white knight or dubious agreeable feminist ally. It takes male masculinity and female preference for masculinity for granted.

If I argue towards saying “Women want masculinity” there is an implied taunt of “Well what are you doing? it’s not like you want to wear a dress and play hard to get.”

I have had women grab me at times. Pinch my bum, hand down my trousers. Right, and it's a normal thing for a woman to grab a guy's ass or grab his junk. In a consensual context, of course. It's not some weird thing. You may think women do it less often, but they still do it.

They were non consensual things.

I agree they do it but less often. I think that would be my understanding of the world. And by desire not circumstance. As in women are less sexually aggressive.

Though growing up I did lack the PIV obsession that seemed to be the norm and expected from me as a boy. I wasn’t obsessed with sticking it in. Is that relevant? I still don’t know. All part of the unusual sexual behaviour.

Most guys are obsessed with sticking it in any available orifice, it seems. But you do enjoy PIV? It's not like you won't use your penis during sex?

It was a revelation to understand the pleasure of it. It took the right woman. I was really innocently saying the wrong things to people. People would be thinking “This person needs to fuck, I don’t think he even understands what he’s missing.” Like I said there is so much assumption in what a male sexuality is like or can be. No one is going to come along and say “Yeah well you’re a crossdresser attracted to domish women, it’s a type.”

I’m not passive, and it took a while for me to realise I needed an active or very aggressive partner for me to enjoy sex. But the active sex role is so commonly placed on the male. Perhaps naturally.

I do take an active role but with a woman who prefers being passive that will quickly become the set roles and a turn off for me.

I believe very few women are so passive that all they want to do is lie there. But even if they do, they're still enjoying stuff like intimacy, caressing, kissing, touching, and the physical sensations of sex.

I think it’s fairly common.

By being with you he is experiencing something statistically unusual.

Sure, but do you think he's not a normal man in a sexual sense? I've asked him about this myself, actually, since I used to be so worried he would be judged negatively because of me. He says the way he sees it is that I'm a woman and he's a man and anyone who has a problem with that is just ignorant. I believe him. He's never shown any hesitance about us. I was always the one worried about what people would think.

From here I can’t say if he’s “normal.” Perhaps men who are indifferent or attracted to very masculine women are outside the normal range of preferences.

Of course that is not in any way a judgement.

I think sexuality can be strongly physically based or have a strong indirect sexual element, erotic stories, roles, narratives, right they way through to fetishes. I’ve never related to the very anatomic based sexualities. Even if I can understand it being important.