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[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

Part 1

Regarding complementary I do mean it in three possible ways.

Equal but different with a different flag. Equal but demarcating roles. Similar but with trends in power.

Societies then handle these tin different ways

The flag model is simple, equal but humans having a desire to socially mark biological sex, with more than just physical characteristics. Which is obviously a useful case in sexual reproduction.

Like that gender is a flag for sex. That can serve uncontroversial social purposes.

Second might be gender acting as a flag for gender roles. That most humans have lived without technology in communities where sex as a direct physical implication of role. All encountered societies have had gender roles.

The third would be politically difficult. The idea of men as dominant male. I certainly entertain the possibility that women find masculine dominance is naturally sexually appealing. It’s not everything about the sex appeal of men but it’s so purvasive, recurring and common that’s difficult not to consider.

Obviously I can see why it is politically explosive. But we take it for granted. It’s not just that mean abuse power for sex, it’s that power itself is sexually attractive. Even a small percentage preference in people creates noticeable results in large populations.

Yes I can see the terrible implications of this. It’s not the world I’d organise but it looks familiar.

It’s not that this is the end all position, only that it might be a proclivity of humans.

But you don't see yourself being the same as them? Seems like you have the same foundational belief system as the Red Pillers and incels.

Ha no I’m not on their side.

The red pillars aren’t exactly positive about crossdressers or gender variant men. One aspect I might agree is men and women on average are different in regards to sex. Sexual drive, sexual preferences etc.

That courtship advice has to admit that men and women are generally different.

Incels seem mad, hateful, depressed and depressing. I mean I want compassion for them but they need help.

But you see how I’d disagree with Red Pillers?

Do you know the “blue pill” side?

Kind of extreme on the other side. Probably too liberal feminist, pro trans, queer theory for you. They are far more tolerant of gender variance in men than Red Pill. Even if I find them too anti essentialist.

Like, what do I recommend to straight crossdressers? I would tell them that crossdressing is not popular with women. Femininity in general isn’t. No matter what form it takes. It can work but it’s a minority of women. That’s just how it is.

Maybe that’s Purple Pill.

So was I just a stupid, ignorant person for never being exposed to that growing up? You're saying every other single person but me in my small, God-fearing community was thinking about sex as an act of dominance and power, and I was the lone hold out? How did they know when I didn't?

I’m not saying you’re stupid. This is a debate about underlying psychological drives. I’m not saying “sex and power” is the totality. It’s just prone to being strongly linked. It’s a common idea that sex and power are linked? It’s all there in science and the arts.

It's not like people are scheming and plotting everywhere.

Ha, I think they are. It’s inevitable.

The reason that Ramsay died such a horrible death...

Drama needs suffering for it to work. But it’s not real that makes it acceptable.

Anyone who was taking pleasure in those scenes of sexual abuse and torture is deviant.

I think that’s probably true.

It was not the intent of the directors or producers to show the abuse of that girl as sexually arousing.

The creators' intentions might be ambiguous in that.

Certainly the last season was torture.

I feel like I would be a good law enforcement officer because for me it would not be an ego trip.

Quite possibly.

It's real violence, though. Women are really being hit and strangled. Women are really being called horrible names. BDSM practitioners often try to claim that what happens during sex is somehow not real life. That rings hollow to me. Sex is perhaps the realest part of life of all. A man calling a woman a "whore" during sex is calling her a "whore." He can't say he doesn't mean or it doesn't reflect how he truly feels about her. Of course it does. Otherwise it wouldn't give him pleasure to say it.

Sure I can’t defend all bdsm at all.

But policing language in the bedroom is a problem.

I think this way of thinking has bad unintended consequences.

But if all the women are the same and get rid of certain beauty practices, they're not going to stop desiring them. In fact, I think they'll soon forget all about those things. Men in other cultures and in the past never saw women with shaved legs or underarms and still desired then. Men in certain tribes desire women with bald heads.

Sure but they still had gender norms and gender expression. They were still very much down for body adornment and gendered sexual display.

The more resources humans have the more they indulge it.

I'm saying if it was thrown away. All women buzz their heads, stop shaving, and throw away makeup. Heterosexual men would still obviously want to fuck them. As evidenced by history and other cultures today. We're really just primates when it comes down to it. Female primates don't have gender.

Sure but they still have preferences.

If you suppressed gendered display it would re emerge in other ways. It’s what humans do.

I take neutrality for granted. Femininity is something artificial that is only expected of women. The opposite of femininity is really neutrality, not masculinity.

This is a key idea. I think masculinity’s neutral aspect is cloudy. Yes, traditional society took “men” and “masculinity”to be the natural order.

But masculinity isn’t neutral.

I’m not clear on how one is constructed but not the other is not? I’d think they are both a mix of cultural and natural drives.

Well, of course it is. I know it's harder. I'm not saying it will be easy for you. But if you live in a place where you can express yourself safely, then you shouldn't worry about what other people think. Do you really worry about social approval?

Of course I worry. I’ve already lost friends simply because people know I am a crossdresser. It’s not publicly acceptable. That’s just how it is.

I don't. If I did, I wouldn't be the way I am. The kind of woman I am is upsetting to some in society, but it doesn't make me change my mind.

As we agreed it is more socially acceptable for women to be gender non conforming. It’s a female privilege. :) That’s a joke.

I am empathic to anyone who is gender non conforming. I know it has a social cost. I can see it. Being gender conforming as a man or woman doesn’t have a social cost.

But some men are gay. Some men are feminine. Some biological males are transsexual. Shouldn't they be proud of who they are instead of hiding it?

Ah that’s into a different question.

I thought that's what everyone has been working towards, so that GNC men do not have to hide in the shadows. Surely both sides can agree on this.

In theory, yes. But in practice I think we are light years for gnc males being normalised to everyday life.

What do you think of this article? Men and boys standing up for the rights of other males to be GNC.

Fine but I don’t think it’s going anywhere. By that I mean I don’t think society is changing that much.

Tolerance might be going up but not normalization.

But then I think gender moves along. If skirts, heels, make up etc were normalised both genders would move on to other things.

Gotcha. Thanks. I don't know why you're attracted to them either. If it wasn't a fetish, I'd say it was just a personal preference. But since it is a fetish, I think it has to have originated somewhere.

I always feel fetish is a way of ending thinking about it.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ha, I'll try not to make this another two-parter.

It’s not that this is the end all position, only that it might be a proclivity of humans.

If I believed that, I'd just give up on the world, stop being a feminist, and leave society. There would be no point to anything if that was true. However, I don't believe any of it is natural. We live under a patriarchy, and what we see under patriarchy is not natural.

But you see how I’d disagree with Red Pillers?

Yet you buy into their foundational argument that men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive. That's where all their hate flows from. I'm not saying have the feelings of disgust and superiority towards women that they have. But you accept that they are right about those things. That makes you adjacent to them at least.

Do you know the “blue pill” side? Kind of extreme on the other side. Probably too liberal feminist, pro trans, queer theory for you. They are far more tolerant of gender variance in men than Red Pill. Even if I find them too anti essentialist.

Not sure I'm familiar with them. Aren't they just regular QT people, of the "gender and sexuality can be anything you want" type? Those people buy into the same crap, they're the liberal kinksters who claim to be proud feminists while beating the shit out of women.

I’m not saying you’re stupid. This is a debate about underlying psychological drives. I’m not saying “sex and power” is the totality. It’s just prone to being strongly linked. It’s a common idea that sex and power are linked? It’s all there in science and the arts.

I personally never saw it and still don't see it.

Ha, I think they are. It’s inevitable.

Eh, I don't know. I'm just here in my corner minding my own business and handling my own life. I don't have time for the mind games of others. As long as they don't scheme and plot around me, I'm fine. I have zero tolerance for that type of stuff.

The creators' intentions might be ambiguous in that.

If I thought the show creators were sexually torturing their female characters to appeal to sadistic perverts, I wouldn't have watched GoT. Maybe I'm naive. But I didn't get that sense. They might have been doing it for pathos, to stir up hatred against the villains, but I don't believe they did it to get the viewers off.

Certainly the last season was torture.

Ha, I didn't mind the last season. It was just way too short. But at least my favorite character was still alive at the end, so that was good.

But policing language in the bedroom is a problem. I think this way of thinking has bad unintended consequences.

I'm not the literal bedroom police. I have no desire to do that. But I wouldn't knowingly associate with people who acted that way in their private lives. Hell, I won't even hang out with people who use the word "bitch" in jest.

If you suppressed gendered display it would re emerge in other ways. It’s what humans do.

That's just your theory. You have no way of knowing that.

But masculinity isn’t neutral. I’m not clear on how one is constructed but not the other is not? I’d think they are both a mix of cultural and natural drives.

Femininity is artifice and decoration. Neutrality is just neutrality.

Of course I worry. I’ve already lost friends simply because people know I am a crossdresser. It’s not publicly acceptable. That’s just how it is.

I'm sorry that's happened to you. But honestly, fuck them. You're better off without those people. I know it's not publicly acceptable for males to wear makeup and dresses in most areas. Whether it's for your purposes or because they're trans. I recognize I have things better as a GNC woman, so I don't mean to be flippant. If I'd been born male, my GNC childhood would have looked very different.

But still, try not to worry what other people think. That's the only way we'll make progress. GNC males need to not hide in the shadows. I agree we're still far from normalization, but it's getting better. It's certainly better than it was 50 or 30 years ago.

I always feel fetish is a way of ending thinking about it.

Well, a fetish has an origin of some type. We can still think about it while acknowledging it's a fetish.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Argh I've kept it a two parter.

I'm using google docs to write up replies now.

hope it still kind of makes sense.

I believed that, I'd just give up on the world, stop being a feminist, and leave society. There would be no point to anything if that was true. However, I don't believe any of it is natural. We live under a patriarchy, and what we see under patriarchy is not natural.

But surely you can believe that things can be bad and natural?

Do you think human nature is going to be innately good?

It has to be more complex than that.

Pleasure has to be more complicated.

Games contain winners and losers, dominating and defeating players who are friends. That game playing pleasure mimics things in real life that are rightfully considered wrong. But they exist on a spectrum. That’s the complication of life.

When you play a game with someone there is pleasure in defeating a friend. But it should not be taken literally.

But you see how I’d disagree with Red Pillers?

Yet you buy into their foundational argument that men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive. That's where all their hate flows from. I'm not saying have the feelings of disgust and superiority towards women that they have. But you accept that they are right about those things. That makes you adjacent to them at least.

It might be a harsh reality that on average women are more likely to find dominant men attractive.

Independent of that it might be a reality that humans find power and sex deeply linked.

I think Red Pillers go about this incorrectly. They are prone to lots of bad behaviours. Lack of consent, lack of tolerance, lack of empathy, lack of awareness.

They celebrate the Dark Triad. Those behaviours often ARE attractive to women. But that is often unhealthy.

Do you know the “blue pill” side?

Not sure I'm familiar with them. Aren't they just regular QT people, of the "gender and sexuality can be anything you want" type? Those people buy into the same crap, they're the liberal kinksters who claim to be proud feminists while beating the shit out of women.

That’s probably them then. There are extreme activities certainly. People have different lines.

I’m not saying “sex and power” is the totality. It’s just prone to being strongly linked. It’s a common idea that sex and power are linked? It’s all there in science and the arts.

I personally never saw it and still don't see it.

Well I think it’s there in most places. Common in culture.

I'm not the literal bedroom police. I have no desire to do that. But I wouldn't knowingly associate with people who acted that way in their private lives. Hell, I won't even hang out with people who use the word "bitch" in jest.

To be fair I think we all kind of do have to police the bedroom to a degree. Consent only goes so far. I don’t think we can say everything is ok if there is consent. I don’t think we can say there isn’t good advice about the bedroom. I guess we are deciding what the rules and advice ought to be, even if it isn’t the law.

If you suppressed gendered display it would re emerge in other ways. It’s what humans do. That's just your theory. You have no way of knowing that.

Sure but that’s part of the debate. I make my case.

But masculinity isn’t neutral. I’m not clear on how one is constructed but not the other is not? I’d think they are both a mix of cultural and natural drives. Femininity is artifice and decoration. Neutrality is just neutrality.

I strongly disagree on that. I think it’s a mistake to see masculinity as neutrality.

You yourself have said you think your own masculinity maybe some kind of natural condition. You may be naturally masculinized in some way. It can’t be both an actual condition and neutrality. Masculinity does not come naturally to most women. They don’t want to express it.

Yes, mascline dominated cultures can place masculinity up as the “social normal” but that is a cultural trait promoting one aspect of humanity. Whereas both masculinity and femininity, even if they are placeholders are natural.

Of course I worry. I’ve already lost friends simply because people know I am a crossdresser. It’s not publicly acceptable. That’s just how it is. I'm sorry that's happened to you. But honestly, fuck them. You're better off without those people. I know it's not publicly acceptable for males to wear makeup and dresses in most areas. Whether it's for your purposes or because they're trans. I recognize I have things better as a GNC woman, so I don't mean to be flippant. If I'd been born male, my GNC childhood would have looked very different.

But still, try not to worry what other people think. That's the only way we'll make progress. GNC males need to not hide in the shadows. I agree we're still far from normalization, but it's getting better. It's certainly better than it was 50 or 30 years ago.

Ach I’m middle aged now and I don’t think there has really been any progress in my life. (middle aged crossdressers, the worst lol) It’s still effectively underground and taboo. Society may even be moving towards less tolerance. Maybe that’s part of polarization. I’ve probably heard more negative comments now than when I was young. Crossdresser are probably feeling secondary issues by the trans debate pulling them in. But then I see crossdressers are related to trans. Of course I don’t say they have to identify as trans but they appear to have a related condition. When people say the trans umbrella it might as well be “gender variant conditions.” Gender is a messy, complex topic.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But surely you can believe that things can be bad and natural? Do you think human nature is going to be innately good?

No, but if the entire female sex is innately inferior, then there is no point to feminism. Misogynists would be right in keeping women down if we're just all weak, pathetic losers.

Games contain winners and losers, dominating and defeating players who are friends.

But you're positing that an entire sex is made up of inferior, weak losers. And sex is not somehow removed from the rest of life.

It might be a harsh reality that on average women are more likely to find dominant men attractive.

So your belief is just like Red Pill, that women are inferior beings who for some natural reason want to be violently controlled and abused. And you don't see how that's problematic. You only seem to have a problem with Red Pill because they have asshole personalities, not because of what they believe about women.

Well I think it’s there in most places. Common in culture.

Eh, maybe it depends on what you're exposing yourself to.

To be fair I think we all kind of do have to police the bedroom to a degree. Consent only goes so far. I don’t think we can say everything is ok if there is consent. I don’t think we can say there isn’t good advice about the bedroom. I guess we are deciding what the rules and advice ought to be, even if it isn’t the law.

Of course. "Anything goes" is not reasonable. Consent cannot be unlimited. And even if people "consent" it doesn't mean what happens is ethical. Those depraved people who do Nazi role play or rape role play are immoral, evil individuals in my book, no matter how much consent they allegedly procure beforehand. I'm not saying the literal police need to be involved, though.

You yourself have said you think your own masculinity maybe some kind of natural condition. You may be naturally masculinized in some way. It can’t be both an actual condition and neutrality. Masculinity does not come naturally to most women. They don’t want to express it.

I think I was born with an inability to conform to gendered expectations. I think most children are quite easily socialized and gendered according to the whims of society. As such, you could certainly raise little girls to embrace neutrality and most of them would. Perhaps a very small portion would not. But in a genderless world, there would be nothing feminine for them to embrace because femininity as decoration would have been eradicated.

Ach I’m middle aged now and I don’t think there has really been any progress in my life. (middle aged crossdressers, the worst lol) It’s still effectively underground and taboo.

What's your social circle like? Are you friends with other crossdressers? I know you're straight, but have you ever befriended gay GNC men? Not necessarily drag queens, but more feminine gay men? I don't think it has to be that underground anymore. At least in liberal big cities.

When people say the trans umbrella it might as well be “gender variant conditions.” Gender is a messy, complex topic.

Well, I feel you. They keep lumping GNC women like me in with trans. Which is why so many of us are fleeing womanhood. It's sad and upsetting. There's nothing wrong with my body no matter how I prefer to dress and cut my hair. But society doesn't see it that way. They see me as a "failed woman" and seem to think I'd be better off identifying as a man.