Both: Do you believe there are sexual components to masculinity and femininity?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

If a person find femininity in men attractive that's usually classes as deviancy.

If a woman or a man finds a man in a dress and makeup sexually attractive, then go for it. Only homophobes or those in favor of rigid gender roles would have anything negative to say. GC says that men should be allowed to present however they want. We would only criticize if this involves some kind of humiliation fetish. I just talked to someone on Reddit calling himself "SissySubScarlett" who couldn't understand (or at least was pretending not to understand) what was misogynistic about his username.

I mean there's lots of directions in of taking that. Men as the default, women as the prize.

It's fucking sickening that we're considered "prizes." Men are default. There is nothing default about femininity. It was created to keep women in a certain role.

Lots of girls and women find masculinity attractive. Arguing against that is arguing against the sea.

I do not believe that any girl is born finding toxic masculinity attractive.

You yourself desire to express that masculinity, that comes from culture. There is a natural part of you that is tuning in on that cultural creation.

I am a person who has qualities that are considered "masculine" according to this society. I don't desire to express anything negative.

But you do think masculinity can be fine. But you don't think femininity can be fine?

Femininity is an oppressive social role designed for women and girls. In a patriarchy, femininity cannot be neutral. Theoretically, there should be nothing wrong with makeup and dresses, but it's what those makeup and dresses signify and the way they are pushed on women and girls that is toxic. A dress itself is just a piece of cloth. Anyone should be able to wear a dress in a normal world.

So femininity and personality isn't shallow. That's still finding femininity sexual.

I think men find sexual whatever they're taught to find sexual. It involves the female body, not "femininity." That's why straight men don't want to fuck drag queens or crossdressers.

But that combination still means sexual aspect of gender.

I don't see any sexual aspect to gender. I think you have very strange ideas about all this.

Here's an example on reddit

Good Lord, the fucking women on r/sex are not sexually healthy. That sub is full of the most extreme and deviant people imaginable. Most of them were probably raped, traumatized, and harassed to develop such fetishes in the first place. No little girl is born that way. If I believed girls were born inferior, I'd just give up and kill myself because there would be no point to anything feminists are trying to do. Society is sick and pornified, and the women and men on r/sex are just one terrible example.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

If a woman or a man finds a man in a dress and makeup sexually attractive, then go for it. Only homophobes or those in favor of rigid gender roles would have anything negative to say. GC says that men should be allowed to present however they want. We would only criticize if this involves some kind of humiliation fetish. I just talked to someone on Reddit calling himself "SissySubScarlett" who couldn't understand (or at least was pretending not to understand) what was misogynistic about his username.

yeah I mean I can see the problem with that. I can see from some feminist backgrounds the problems with sex positive femininity.

But a basic starting point I'd have is that, for want of a better word, I'm skeptical you can make human sexuality politically correct. That seems like the reality.

That doesn't mean you should tolerate everything. But it does mean you have to be honest and realistic about how sexuality appears.

For me this is like saying murder and violence is wrong. Therefore people should not enjoy murder and violence on television. Especially in dramas. But people love that. They can know violence is wrong and still enjoy Game of Thrones and cop shows.

I totally see the complications of sexuality in that. But you aren't going to get populations anything like pure. That's my impression of the world and how it works. I do think there have to be rules and boundaries. I don't agree with everything on /r/sex but calling them all broken is unrealistic.

There plenty of other things people feel ashamed of sexually. For example people have fantasies of orgies. Men and women will have fantasises of all kinds of sexual orgies. They feel ashamed about it. They might not want to do it in real life. But they carry on having those fantasies. Society can't do much about people having those fantasies. They seem naturally emergent to me.

But you still don't see how people can be attracted to gender?

When you say you are masculine, do you mean that in role or appearance. I expect you mean it terms of both.

But you can't see how people find masculinity sexually attractive?

A dress itself is just a piece of cloth.

It has to be more complicated than that. There is a lot going on in any adornment.

I think men find sexual whatever they're taught to find sexual. It involves the female body, not "femininity."

We do pick up cues from culture but it is not all one way or direct.

Do you think you were taught to find masculinity sexually attractive?

That's why straight men don't want to fuck drag queens or crossdressers.

Straight men are generally sexually attracted to femininity though.

I don't see any sexual aspect to gender. I think you have very strange ideas about all this.

I would think it's the other way round.

Most people can see the sexual aspects of gender. It is self evident for them.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

But a basic starting point I'd have is that, for want of a better word, I'm skeptical you can make human sexuality politically correct. That seems like the reality.

Human sexuality exists within the framework of human society. And all human societies are unequal. So it's an uphill battle, but it's something we can strive for. I do not believe any girl or woman is born to want to be inferior.

For me this is like saying murder and violence is wrong. Therefore people should not enjoy murder and violence on television. Especially in dramas. But people love that. They can know violence is wrong and still enjoy Game of Thrones and cop shows.

If people are taking sadistic pleasure in what they see on Game of Thrones or cop shows, there's something wrong with them. I was a big GoT fan. There were plenty of evil characters. The audience wasn't meant to identify with the evil ones who were raping and torturing. They weren't meant to take pleasure in those scenes with Joffrey or Ramsay sadistically torturing people.

I don't agree with everything on /r/sex but calling them all broken is unrealistic.

Most of them are. Also, the mods expressly forbid dissenting opinions. You're not allowed to say anything against kink or BDSM there.

But they carry on having those fantasies. Society can't do much about people having those fantasies. They seem naturally emergent to me.

Orgies don't involve hurting other people. That would be against my personal moral code, but I don't find it immoral if other people think about it or do it. My partner told me he likes the idea of being with two women. Seems like a common male fantasy, even if I don't understand the appeal. It's not harmful. There's nothing inherently destructive or disrespectful about it.

But you still don't see how people can be attracted to gender?

Not really. I'm attracted to the male body. Male bodies are sexed, not gendered. I think the root of sexual orientation is sex. Everything else is window dressing and depends on what culture people are raised in and what they're taught as kids. I think men are only attracted to Western femininity because that's what's presented to them. If they were presented with bare-faced women with shaved heads, they'd want that instead.

When you say you are masculine, do you mean that in role or appearance. I expect you mean it terms of both. But you can't see how people find masculinity sexually attractive?

Both, I guess. In terms of what society expects, that's just how I'm comfortable. To me, it's the default. And no, I don't really get it. To me, attraction is about sex. Masculinity is not sex. It's not biological in the way that the male body is.

Do you think you were taught to find masculinity sexually attractive?

I don't think I was taught to find anything sexually attractive. I'm not sure. I was kind of oblivious to sex as a kid, and my media was restricted to age appropriate material only. I certainly wasn't exposed to porn or BDSM material, thank God. There was nothing in my environment that told me masculinity was sexual. I was more concerned with modeling myself on my dad and grandfather. There was nothing sexual about that, obviously.

I would think it's the other way round. Most people can see the sexual aspects of gender. It is self evident for them.

I mean, no offense, but you've got a fetish. Who do you think is more likely to attribute fetishes to other people? I was raised in a small town around conservative God-fearing people. Fetishes were not part of my upbringing. I had no idea they existed until maybe late high school but then only very, very vaguely. They were not considered something normal people in normal places had.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (26 children)

Where were we?

Human sexuality exists within the framework of human society. And all human societies are unequal. So it's an uphill battle, but it's something we can strive for. I do not believe any girl or woman is born to want to be inferior.

yeah it's not about thinking a woman is inferior.

I think it is partly about a dynamic. But power dynamics can be complex. I know you're thinking "but sex isn't, shouldn't, and doesn't need to be about power." Sure. But sex and power are going to carry on being linked. Regular human relations are always tinged with power dynamics. Nothing to do with sex or bdsm. Just regular subtle power games. Social status. It's not that all power games in all relations are healthy but it's wrong to think they aren't going on. Often it's about finding a balance and trade in that.

If people are taking sadistic pleasure in what they see on Game of Thrones or cop shows, there's something wrong with them. I was a big GoT fan. There were plenty of evil characters. The audience wasn't meant to identify with the evil ones who were raping and torturing. They weren't meant to take pleasure in those scenes with Joffrey or Ramsay sadistically torturing people.

Right but the pleasure isn't there without the horror. The pleasure of the justice requires we witness the horror to know what goodness is. We need theatrical fight and chase, it's exhilarating. Rollercoaster rides, horror films are about pushed ourselves to be scared and then returning to a normality. Everything is now ok. Am I saying that's going on in bdsm? Not entirely sure. Though sex as theatre I think shares that.

People are going to go rock climbing and chasing dangerous pastimes, they need to do that safely.

I think there are a number of things going on in bdsm. Do I think they're all healthy? no. Do I think mild bdsm can be fun and healthy? yes. Literally nobody is being hurt. A lot of what works for people is theatre.

I don't agree with everything on /r/sex but calling them all broken is unrealistic.

Most of them are. Also, the mods expressly forbid dissenting opinions. You're not allowed to say anything against kink or BDSM there.

Well obviously I am fairly open to debate.

Orgies don't involve hurting other people. That would be against my personal moral code, but I don't find it immoral if other people think about it or do it. My partner told me he likes the idea of being with two women. Seems like a common male fantasy, even if I don't understand the appeal. It's not harmful. There's nothing inherently destructive or disrespectful about it.

Sure. Your line is physical harm?

But you still don't see how people can be attracted to gender?

Not really. I'm attracted to the male body. Male bodies are sexed, not gendered. I think the root of sexual orientation is sex. Everything else is window dressing and depends on what culture people are raised in and what they're taught as kids.

I think window dressing is incredibly important.

It certainly appears important to others.

I think men are only attracted to Western femininity because that's what's presented to them. If they were presented with bare-faced women with shaved heads, they'd want that instead.

One of my beliefs a lot of it might be flags. Flags for sex/gender. So yes Western men are presented with femininity, and Western women are presented with masculinity. The content might change in other cultures but there are always two flags. The two flags, of masculinity and femininity always emerge.

Within that masculinity, being stronger, are always going to be associated with strength. So even if the flags are essentially blank they can only be completed with the realm of physical reality.

Some of this is basic as a pink flag and blue flag. If it wasn't those colours it would be other symbols. Humans being obsessed with symbolism.

Both, I guess. In terms of what society expects, that's just how I'm comfortable. To me, it's the default. And no, I don't really get it. To me, attraction is about sex. Masculinity is not sex. It's not biological in the way that the male body is.

How about sensuousness?

I'm attracted to the sensuousness of femininity. I know this can seem strictly fetishistic. But there's also the whole "gay" inflection of this. It's annoying because I wrote a long item on this before the event on the old sub. I used to express a lot more things that were often coded gay but realised it was far too socially dangerous. People make assumptions. I mean often like those looks but then I'm a crossdresser.

There is a whole of tension in men not wanting to look gay because it is clearly bad for the heterosexual appearance. Which must be guarded. Just like bi men are more reluctant to admit their preference.

But back to sensiousness. They aren't quite coded in a power way. Maybe there is a relationship.

But am I attracted to them because I'm a crossdresser, because I like a passive role, because I like to express femininity?

Masculinity is now associated with rough utilitarian materials. Toughness. Practicality.

Yes masculinity can and sometimes is associated with very loud expression - rock stars, military parade uniforms, previous eras flamboyance. Though even the excess of those is associated with homosexuality.

But the aesthetic appear remains.

Like if I look at jewellery I think it looks beautiful and inviting. I'm not thinking about power or roles. It just appeals to me. I want to wear it. The same goes for a lot of other feminine coded items. Expressing it makes me feel erotic and in the mood for sex. It's like foreplay and an invitation. I don't have to say I am woman. It' s not on my mind. But femininity is. At least that expression of it.

Both, I guess. In terms of what society expects, that's just how I'm comfortable. To me, it's the default. And no, I don't really get it. To me, attraction is about sex. Masculinity is not sex. It's not biological in the way that the male body is.

Sure I mean I think sex can be very physically based. But that's not erotic play.

Sex didn't make sense to me. I was never focused on the in out. It just wasn't prominent in my mind. It still isn't. But with the right woman it works. I understood it more then. But sex didn't change my sexuality.

I think its interesting you say the default. Because I think that's how I think how gc often sees masculinity. But I don't think that's a popular feeling.

I don't think I was taught to find anything sexually attractive. I'm not sure. I was kind of oblivious to sex as a kid, and my media was restricted to age appropriate material only. I certainly wasn't exposed to porn or BDSM material, thank God. There was nothing in my environment that told me masculinity was sexual. I was more concerned with modeling myself on my dad and grandfather. There was nothing sexual about that, obviously.

But isn't that the same for most people?

Sure the internet and porn might be having an effect on people but the sexual variants all existed before the internet.

The link between masculinity and sexuality is a given.

It doesn't need to be taught because for most the pattern is innate. Teaching it wouldn't make any difference.

In that sense telling girls they ought to find masculinity attractive is redundant.

I mean, no offense, but you've got a fetish. Who do you think is more likely to attribute fetishes to other people? I was raised in a small town around conservative God-fearing people. Fetishes were not part of my upbringing. I had no idea they existed until maybe late high school but then only very, very vaguely. They were not considered something normal people in normal places had.

But people learn about the sexuality often after they already feel it.

More a case of "Oh that's what my feeling is called."

Natural anomalous behaviour is often only recognisable when looking at a larger number.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

yeah it's not about thinking a woman is inferior.

Of course it is. If there's a hierarchy, then someone is the loser. Someone is the inferior one. Someone's at the bottom of the totem pole. And society has deemed that it be women. There's no way to argue that women just naturally want to be abused and then say they're not inferior to men. I mean, come on there. It's perfectly justified to rape and abuse women if that's what all women naturally want. That's what the incels and Red Pillers believe. I've seen dozens of different men on Reddit spouting those disgusting beliefs.

But sex and power are going to carry on being linked.

I would dispute that. I was not raised that way. There are millions of people around the world who have never heard of BDSM.

Regular human relations are always tinged with power dynamics. Nothing to do with sex or bdsm. Just regular subtle power games. Social status. It's not that all power games in all relations are healthy but it's wrong to think they aren't going on. Often it's about finding a balance and trade in that.

Disagree. Maybe in unhealthy environments, but not in all environments. I'm a peaceful person. I have no tolerance for mind games in any aspect of my life.

Right but the pleasure isn't there without the horror. The pleasure of the justice requires we witness the horror to know what goodness is.

That's not what I mean. The audience was not meant to get sexually turned on by the torture. They were meant to hate the character. And yes, that's why they cheered when Joffrey got poisoned or Ramsay was eaten by dogs. Anyone who was experiencing pleasure by witnessing the torture itself is a sick individual.

Do I think mild bdsm can be fun and healthy? yes. Literally nobody is being hurt.

I guess we have different definitions. People are physically being hurt, emotionally being hurt, and they're also hurting others in society.

Sure. Your line is physical harm?

My line is disrespect. Physical harm just makes a bad situation even worse. But the most important thing is whether or not all parties are treated with respect. I don't care if my partner wants to bed two women at once as long as he's not thinking of those women as inferior or wanting to hurt them in some way. I still don't get the group sex thing. It goes against my personal morals. But I don't think it's automatically an immoral act.

I think window dressing is incredibly important. It certainly appears important to others.

Not really, haven't you heard that men will fuck anything? It's only partly a joke. If all women shaved their heads and threw away their makeup and feminine clothes, heterosexual men would still deeply want to fuck women. There's no way to stop biology. There's always an urge to reproduce the species.

Within that masculinity, being stronger, are always going to be associated with strength. So even if the flags are essentially blank they can only be completed with the realm of physical reality.

I don't get this. Could you explain?

How about sensuousness?

Male bodies are equally as sensuous! I would never want to touch a woman the way I want to touch a man. Men's bodies are endlessly fascinating. I find the entire experience of sex extremely sensual. It all depends on which sex your orientation determines that you want to caress.

I'm attracted to the sensuousness of femininity.

Bodies are equally sensuous, at least in my book, depending on one's orientation. Masculinity and femininity are neither. I just don't get the appeal. So you want to wear dresses and makeup, okay, but I don't understand why.

I used to express a lot more things that were often coded gay but realised it was far too socially dangerous.

But who cares if people assume you're gay? Everyone I meet must assume I'm a butch lesbian. It's not a big deal. You can be an effeminate straight guy. It doesn't have to be related to fetishes.

But am I attracted to them because I'm a crossdresser, because I like a passive role, because I like to express femininity?

What's "them," in this context? I don't quite follow.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing, have you ever had just normal sex with a woman without involving a fetish? Or are you not capable of being aroused by regular sex without BDSM elements or crossdressing?

Like if I look at jewellery I think it looks beautiful and inviting. I'm not thinking about power or roles. It just appeals to me. I want to wear it. The same goes for a lot of other feminine coded items. Expressing it makes me feel erotic and in the mood for sex. It's like foreplay and an invitation. I don't have to say I am woman. It' s not on my mind. But femininity is. At least that expression of it.

Well, if jewelry itself turns you on even to look at it, that's obviously fetishistic. I mean, there's nothing wrong with liking jewelry. Lots of men do. But it's different to get an erection thinking about jewelry and have it put you in the mood for sex.

Sure I mean I think sex can be very physically based. But that's not erotic play.

What's erotic play? I think I'm very erotically playful. I'm not shy about any aspect of my sex life, so I'm happy to go into detail, but I'm not some serious person in bed. I think sex should be joyful. I enjoy pleasing and being pleasured. I don't think I'm boring. My partner doesn't seem to think I am. It's not like we only do missionary in the dark or something. We're very active and even exploratory.

Sex didn't make sense to me. I was never focused on the in out. It just wasn't prominent in my mind. It still isn't. But with the right woman it works. I understood it more then. But sex didn't change my sexuality.

How old were you when you first became aware of your fetish, if you don't mind me asking?

I think its interesting you say the default. Because I think that's how I think how gc often sees masculinity. But I don't think that's a popular feeling.

It's more neutrality. Femininity is something layered on to the natural human experience.

In that sense telling girls they ought to find masculinity attractive is redundant.

I think your idea of this mythical masculinity and the reality of female sexuality are not in alignment. If you think girls don't need to be taught to be attracted to toxic male figures, then you're really just saying that we're born inferior. I don't see what the purpose of feminism is in that case.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (23 children)

Of course it is. If there's a hierarchy, then someone is the loser. Someone is the inferior one.

What's wrong with thinking things can be complimentary?

Sometimes individualism helps, sometimes group work is optimal.

Sometimes leading is best, sometimes following is optimal.

Everything isn't a hierarchy.

What's better drums or guitar?

Someone's at the bottom of the totem pole. And society has deemed that it be women. There's no way to argue that women just naturally want to be abused and then say they're not inferior to men. I mean, come on there. It's perfectly justified to rape and abuse women if that's what all women naturally want. That's what the incels and Red Pillers believe. I've seen dozens of different men on Reddit spouting those disgusting beliefs.

Oh I do think they spout those beliefs.

I do think lots of have dubious sexualities. I think they have to disconnect those desires from reality. Even if they meet women with those desires.

I would dispute that. I was not raised that way. There are millions of people around the world who have never heard of BDSM.

Of course but they still see the connection between power and sex.

Disagree. Maybe in unhealthy environments, but not in all environments. I'm a peaceful person. I have no tolerance for mind games in any aspect of my life.

I tend to think mind games are impossible to avoid.

It's not that all life is unhealthy social mind games but that we are always involved in games in social interactions. That is what regular onscreen drama is. The stuff of soaps.

That's not what I mean. The audience was not meant to get sexually turned on by the torture. They were meant to hate the character. And yes, that's why they cheered when Joffrey got poisoned or Ramsay was eaten by dogs. Anyone who was experiencing pleasure by witnessing the torture itself is a sick individual.

Isn't GoT knowingly teasing us by having us enjoy Ramsay suffering? We should not take pleasure in the pain of others but here we have the pleasure of revenge. That is onscreen extremism.

But you never take pleasure in small revenge in real life? The small games of life?

My line is disrespect.

I think the disrespect in bdsm is play. It should not be thought of as serious. It is theatre. That would be my interpretation.

I don't care if my partner wants to bed two women at once as long as he's not thinking of those women as inferior or wanting to hurt them in some way. I still don't get the group sex thing. It goes against my personal morals. But I don't think it's automatically an immoral act.

Group things aren't my thing either. I've actually had some personal trauma about that kind of thing. Being invited to an orgy without knowing it is an orgy is probably the best way to describe it.

Not really, haven't you heard that men will fuck anything? It's only partly a joke.

Well a couple things about that.

I think yes men possibly naturally do have a higher sex drive. That affects relations between the sexes.

They also have an order preference in that "fucking."

If all women shaved their heads and threw away their makeup and feminine clothes, heterosexual men would still deeply want to fuck women. There's no way to stop biology. There's always an urge to reproduce the species.

However they still have preferences. All the "culture of gender expression" isn't being thrown away.

They women too have preferences. All aspects of male gender expression would be thrown away too.

Both sexes use things other than their physical bodies to rise in the order. That seems a perfect natural activity.

Bodies are equally sensuous, at least in my book, depending on one's orientation. Masculinity and femininity are neither. I just don't get the appeal. So you want to wear dresses and makeup, okay, but I don't understand why.

Sure but, I in turn would say you are being the outlier case here. I of course say I am an outlier in my preferences in women and gender expression.

I would also say you might be taking masculinity for granted. You see it as the norm, the default. You don't see any point in anything else. Where as most people take both for granted.

But who cares if people assume you're gay? Everyone I meet must assume I'm a butch lesbian. It's not a big deal. You can be an effeminate straight guy. It doesn't have to be related to fetishes.

Well I thought we'd agreed that male gender non conformity is far more socially unacceptable?

You have to care not to appear gay, not to appear weak, not to appear feminine, not to appear that you might enjoy expressing femininity. Because it is socially toxic.

It's like "Yeah if you wear a dress you better not be enjoying it, you better still be a real man with real masculinity."

What's "them," in this context? I don't quite follow.

Ah I mean attracted to the elements of femininity.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing, have you ever had just normal sex with a woman without involving a fetish?

Yes with women who were intensely sexual. There seems to be overlap between dominant and intensely sexual maybe. Their sexual passionate aggression turns me on.

ha does that make it sound I am not a generous lover?

I enjoy pleasing partners but unless they can please me it becomes a turn off. That is not blame on anyone. It's about being a good match.

Or are you not capable of being aroused by regular sex without BDSM elements or crossdressing?

I feel like I need some element but like I said that element might be aggressive passion or that emotional link. "This person loves who I am." "We are linking on that." "I love who they are and they love me."

But the majority of women I find are passive and focused on masculinity.

Well, if jewelry itself turns you on even to look at it, that's obviously fetishistic. I mean, there's nothing wrong with liking jewelry. Lots of men do. But it's different to get an erection thinking about jewelry and have it put you in the mood for sex.

Well jewellery is popular, you can see the aesthetic appeal of it?

What's erotic play? I think I'm very erotically playful. I'm not shy about any aspect of my sex life, so I'm happy to go into detail, but I'm not some serious person in bed. I think sex should be joyful. I enjoy pleasing and being pleasured. I don't think I'm boring. My partner doesn't seem to think I am. It's not like we only do missionary in the dark or something. We're very active and even exploratory.

But it's a relative thing surely? There has to be good matches.

I wasn't thinking you were boring and as I understand the world. People enjoy different things. Some people are very focused on the body. Some people are very passive but want attention.

How old were you when you first became aware of your fetish, if you don't mind me asking?

Well I pre school I was interested in femininity. It was clear flicking something in me.

It became sexual as I grew up. Things fell in to place. But I wasn't masturbating instead I had a lot of awkward wet dreams. In retrospect I can see I didn't really understand myself. Why would I?

lol in fact I can remember shocking people by telling them I didn't masturbate. cringe. That was a mistake. People thought it was weird and it was.

I mean I did find crossdressing and dominant women erotic but those ideas are too outside normal life to make sense of. Crossdressing is also so strongly linked to homosexuality. I probably lost my virginity later than most. But then I wasn't focused on the masculinity that seems so important to heterosexuality. I was doing my own thing.

I think your idea of this mythical masculinity and the reality of female sexuality are not in alignment. If you think girls don't need to be taught to be attracted to toxic male figures, then you're really just saying that we're born inferior. I don't see what the purpose of feminism is in that case.

But isn't this back to the logic that leads to everyone needing to be masculine?

But you must see that isn't what the mass population wants?

I know you'll blame culture but the desires seem too strong to believe that.

[–]Juniperius 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Certainly it is possible for things to be complementary and not hierarchical. Your examples of individual vs. group work and guitar and drums are good illustrations of that. But you explicitly link masculinity with dominance and femininity with submission, which is the precise definition of hierarchy: this person uses force to impose his will on that person, this person gets his way and that person is just acted upon like a non-sentient object.

I know kinksters have contorted themselves into thinking that the submissive person is actually in charge, but even if that's maybe sort of true in their little games, it's not how hierarchy works in the real world, and it's not how masculinity and femininity play out in the real world.

Saying that women are put in an inferior position because of stupid and evil dominance bullshit means things like, if a man gets a better job in a different town, his wife may be expected to leave her life, home, and family to go with him, and not the other way around, because her silly little job doesn't matter like his big masculine job, and her will has to give way to his.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Certainly it is possible for things to be complementary and not hierarchical. Your examples of individual vs. group work and guitar and drums are good illustrations of that.

But you explicitly link masculinity with dominance and femininity with submission, which is the precise definition of hierarchy: this person uses force to impose his will on that person, this person gets his way and that person is just acted upon like a non-sentient object.

Sure. I agree.

I am offering two aspects on this.

Gender as empty flag that is complementary and completed by culture.

Nothing to do with power but always emergent and always different. Would you think that possible?

A more awkward version means that it has innate behaviours or even slightly innate gendered tendencies.

Which might include that male trait for dominance and aggression.

Maybe, maybe not.

It's certainly there culturally across lots of cultures. Stronger or weaker.

I can see that would be politically difficult. It's not like it puts me in a good position.

I know kinksters have contorted themselves into thinking that the submissive person is actually in charge, but even if that's maybe sort of true in their little games, it's not how hierarchy works in the real world, and it's not how masculinity and femininity play out in the real world.

Right, so it isn't the real world.

Saying that women are put in an inferior position because of stupid and evil dominance bullshit means things like, if a man gets a better job in a different town, his wife may be expected to leave her life, home, and family to go with him, and not the other way around, because her silly little job doesn't matter like his big masculine job, and her will has to give way to his.

I'm not arguing against that to say it's a good thing. I'm not arguing for men to dominate women.

But I have to live with the world as it is.

For instance that US ebook erotica by popularity.

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Erotica/zgbs/digital-text/157057011/?tf=1

Sure they can keep things in the bedroom but there must be some interaction with the real world.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What's wrong with thinking things can be complimentary?

So you're saying it's "complementary" for men to be seen as sexually superior to women? This is like those horrible religions who say husbands are the leaders and wives have to submit to them because men and women have "complementary" roles. It's just your basic inequality dressed up not to sound sexist, when in fact it's deeply sexist and misogynistic because women are always lesser in that worldview. It's not like men follow sometimes and women lead sometimes.

Everything isn't a hierarchy.

You're just claiming a literal hierarchy (men dominant, women submissive) and then saying it's not a hierarchy? I'm confused.

Oh I do think they spout those beliefs.

But you don't see yourself being the same as them? Seems like you have the same foundational belief system as the Red Pillers and incels.

Of course but they still see the connection between power and sex.

So was I just a stupid, ignorant person for never being exposed to that growing up? You're saying every other single person but me in my small, God-fearing community was thinking about sex as an act of dominance and power, and I was the lone hold out? How did they know when I didn't?

I tend to think mind games are impossible to avoid.

I mean, sometimes people fight. Sometimes there's drama. Sometimes there's gossip. I'm a very laid back person. I don't involve myself in that stuff. If that was going on constantly, I'd change my environment. I work in an office. If there are mind games going on here, I'm not aware of them. It's not like people are scheming and plotting everywhere. Or maybe they are and I'm just oblivious. Either way, it's not affecting me. I take things at face value, for the most part.

Isn't GoT knowingly teasing us by having us enjoy Ramsay suffering? We should not take pleasure in the pain of others but here we have the pleasure of revenge.

Maybe you're not familiar with the show. The reason that Ramsay died such a horrible death (and the audience was happy) was because he sexually tortured and abused a beloved female character. I'm saying that while it might be normal for a viewer to enjoy this scene of Ramsay getting his comeuppance, no viewer was meant to enjoy the sexual torture of the beloved female character. Anyone who was taking pleasure in those scenes of sexual abuse and torture is deviant. It was not the intent of the directors or producers to show the abuse of that girl as sexually arousing.

But you never take pleasure in small revenge in real life? The small games of life?

I'm not a vengeful type person, no. If I don't like someone, I avoid them. I don't harbor fantasies of violence or revenge. That is not to say I am averse to committing violence if it is necessary. I know how to fight. I would not hesitate to punch a man in the face if I had to in order to defend myself. However, I would take no pleasure in that act, even if the man in question is a horrible person. I was just taught violence should be for defense, not to strike first, and not to strike against people who are smaller and weaker than you.

I feel like I would be a good law enforcement officer because for me it would not be an ego trip. My ego is not fragile. I would truly be committed to law and order for the sake of upholding society's safety and security, not because it gives me pleasure to lord power over others or commit violent acts on them.

I think the disrespect in bdsm is play. It should not be thought of as serious. It is theatre. That would be my interpretation.

It's real violence, though. Women are really being hit and strangled. Women are really being called horrible names. BDSM practitioners often try to claim that what happens during sex is somehow not real life. That rings hollow to me. Sex is perhaps the realest part of life of all. A man calling a woman a "whore" during sex is calling her a "whore." He can't say he doesn't mean or it doesn't reflect how he truly feels about her. Of course it does. Otherwise it wouldn't give him pleasure to say it.

Group things aren't my thing either. I've actually had some personal trauma about that kind of thing. Being invited to an orgy without knowing it is an orgy is probably the best way to describe it.

Sorry to hear that. Yeah, I would never agree to any kind of group activity. I just feel like it would be weird and uncomfortable and completely unarousing. I only want one person at a time.

They also have an order preference in that "fucking."

But if all the women are the same and get rid of certain beauty practices, they're not going to stop desiring them. In fact, I think they'll soon forget all about those things. Men in other cultures and in the past never saw women with shaved legs or underarms and still desired then. Men in certain tribes desire women with bald heads.

However they still have preferences. All the "culture of gender expression" isn't being thrown away.

I'm saying if it was thrown away. All women buzz their heads, stop shaving, and throw away makeup. Heterosexual men would still obviously want to fuck them. As evidenced by history and other cultures today. We're really just primates when it comes down to it. Female primates don't have gender.

I would also say you might be taking masculinity for granted. You see it as the norm, the default. You don't see any point in anything else. Where as most people take both for granted.

I take neutrality for granted. Femininity is something artificial that is only expected of women. The opposite of femininity is really neutrality, not masculinity.

Well I thought we'd agreed that male gender non conformity is far more socially unacceptable?

Well, of course it is. I know it's harder. I'm not saying it will be easy for you. But if you live in a place where you can express yourself safely, then you shouldn't worry about what other people think. Do you really worry about social approval? I don't. If I did, I wouldn't be the way I am. The kind of woman I am is upsetting to some in society, but it doesn't make me change my mind.

You have to care not to appear gay, not to appear weak, not to appear feminine, not to appear that you might enjoy expressing femininity. Because it is socially toxic.

But some men are gay. Some men are feminine. Some biological males are transsexual. Shouldn't they be proud of who they are instead of hiding it? I thought that's what everyone has been working towards, so that GNC men do not have to hide in the shadows. Surely both sides can agree on this.

It's like "Yeah if you wear a dress you better not be enjoying it, you better still be a real man with real masculinity."

https://scoop.upworthy.com/male-teachers-wear-skirts-to-support-students-who-got-bullied-for-wearing-feminine-clothing

What do you think of this article? Men and boys standing up for the rights of other males to be GNC.

(Saidit says my comment is too long, so I'm going to continue in a second comment.)

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

(Continuing from previous comment)

Ah I mean attracted to the elements of femininity.

Gotcha. Thanks. I don't know why you're attracted to them either. If it wasn't a fetish, I'd say it was just a personal preference. But since it is a fetish, I think it has to have originated somewhere.

Yes with women who were intensely sexual. There seems to be overlap between dominant and intensely sexual maybe. Their sexual passionate aggression turns me on.

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes? What do you mean by "intensely sexual," just passionate? If you've had good sex with women without involving BDSM (by which I mean violence and power plays), then perhaps you just like women who are active in bed?

ha does that make it sound I am not a generous lover? I enjoy pleasing partners but unless they can please me it becomes a turn off. That is not blame on anyone. It's about being a good match.

That's perfectly reasonable. I would never expect my partner to do all the work in a sexual relationship. That seems selfish. Sex is a two-way street. One person can't just lie there doing nothing. It's about sharing pleasure.

I feel like I need some element but like I said that element might be aggressive passion or that emotional link. "This person loves who I am." "We are linking on that." "I love who they are and they love me."

What's aggressive passion? I mean, there's passion, and then there's aggression. Passion in my book would be vigorous, lustful, active sex.

But the majority of women I find are passive and focused on masculinity.

Really, I mean do they just lie there like they're dead or something? I have never slept with a woman obviously, but that would creep me the fuck out. We have other straight women on this sub. I find it hard to believe most straight women are just non-responsive in bed. How many have you been with, if you're comfortable answering.

Well jewellery is popular, you can see the aesthetic appeal of it?

Not personally, no. I think it looks weird. All of it. But I understand some people like it for aesthetic reasons.

But it's a relative thing surely? There has to be good matches.

Sure, of course. You have to be a good match with the person. Not everyone can match up well on a sexual level. There has to be chemistry and compatibility when it comes to libido and sexual style. But what do you mean by erotic play? You made a distinction between that and sex that is physically based.

I wasn't thinking you were boring and as I understand the world. People enjoy different things. Some people are very focused on the body. Some people are very passive but want attention.

So you basically just want attention in bed? Like you're passive, so that means you don't prefer to do anything to a woman's body, you just want her to do things to your body?

Well I pre school I was interested in femininity. It was clear flicking something in me.

Do you think it would have inevitably turned sexual, if you had been allowed to explore femininity in preschool and have it normalized for you?

But then I wasn't focused on the masculinity that seems so important to heterosexuality. I was doing my own thing.

You really seem obsessed with this idea of masculinity. It seems like you just think of it constantly. Like is it insecurity, like you think other men have this quality that you don't have and feel inferior to them because of it? Is there some sexual component to it, like in cuckolding? I bet a lot of men are totally oblivious to these types of thoughts you're having. Some men really don't give a shit about this whole thing. I'll have to talk to my partner about this in greater detail, but he's never been tortured over masculinity like you seem to be.

But isn't this back to the logic that leads to everyone needing to be masculine? But you must see that isn't what the mass population wants?

We have no idea what the mass population would want in an equal, non-patriarchal society. Everyone in this society has already been indoctrinated since birth.

I know you'll blame culture but the desires seem too strong to believe that.

So we're back to you assuming little girls are born to naturally want to be dominated and abused by men, because "the desires seem too strong" for you to believe otherwise? Do you really not see how incredibly misogynistic this is?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

Part 1

Regarding complementary I do mean it in three possible ways.

Equal but different with a different flag. Equal but demarcating roles. Similar but with trends in power.

Societies then handle these tin different ways

The flag model is simple, equal but humans having a desire to socially mark biological sex, with more than just physical characteristics. Which is obviously a useful case in sexual reproduction.

Like that gender is a flag for sex. That can serve uncontroversial social purposes.

Second might be gender acting as a flag for gender roles. That most humans have lived without technology in communities where sex as a direct physical implication of role. All encountered societies have had gender roles.

The third would be politically difficult. The idea of men as dominant male. I certainly entertain the possibility that women find masculine dominance is naturally sexually appealing. It’s not everything about the sex appeal of men but it’s so purvasive, recurring and common that’s difficult not to consider.

Obviously I can see why it is politically explosive. But we take it for granted. It’s not just that mean abuse power for sex, it’s that power itself is sexually attractive. Even a small percentage preference in people creates noticeable results in large populations.

Yes I can see the terrible implications of this. It’s not the world I’d organise but it looks familiar.

It’s not that this is the end all position, only that it might be a proclivity of humans.

But you don't see yourself being the same as them? Seems like you have the same foundational belief system as the Red Pillers and incels.

Ha no I’m not on their side.

The red pillars aren’t exactly positive about crossdressers or gender variant men. One aspect I might agree is men and women on average are different in regards to sex. Sexual drive, sexual preferences etc.

That courtship advice has to admit that men and women are generally different.

Incels seem mad, hateful, depressed and depressing. I mean I want compassion for them but they need help.

But you see how I’d disagree with Red Pillers?

Do you know the “blue pill” side?

Kind of extreme on the other side. Probably too liberal feminist, pro trans, queer theory for you. They are far more tolerant of gender variance in men than Red Pill. Even if I find them too anti essentialist.

Like, what do I recommend to straight crossdressers? I would tell them that crossdressing is not popular with women. Femininity in general isn’t. No matter what form it takes. It can work but it’s a minority of women. That’s just how it is.

Maybe that’s Purple Pill.

So was I just a stupid, ignorant person for never being exposed to that growing up? You're saying every other single person but me in my small, God-fearing community was thinking about sex as an act of dominance and power, and I was the lone hold out? How did they know when I didn't?

I’m not saying you’re stupid. This is a debate about underlying psychological drives. I’m not saying “sex and power” is the totality. It’s just prone to being strongly linked. It’s a common idea that sex and power are linked? It’s all there in science and the arts.

It's not like people are scheming and plotting everywhere.

Ha, I think they are. It’s inevitable.

The reason that Ramsay died such a horrible death...

Drama needs suffering for it to work. But it’s not real that makes it acceptable.

Anyone who was taking pleasure in those scenes of sexual abuse and torture is deviant.

I think that’s probably true.

It was not the intent of the directors or producers to show the abuse of that girl as sexually arousing.

The creators' intentions might be ambiguous in that.

Certainly the last season was torture.

I feel like I would be a good law enforcement officer because for me it would not be an ego trip.

Quite possibly.

It's real violence, though. Women are really being hit and strangled. Women are really being called horrible names. BDSM practitioners often try to claim that what happens during sex is somehow not real life. That rings hollow to me. Sex is perhaps the realest part of life of all. A man calling a woman a "whore" during sex is calling her a "whore." He can't say he doesn't mean or it doesn't reflect how he truly feels about her. Of course it does. Otherwise it wouldn't give him pleasure to say it.

Sure I can’t defend all bdsm at all.

But policing language in the bedroom is a problem.

I think this way of thinking has bad unintended consequences.

But if all the women are the same and get rid of certain beauty practices, they're not going to stop desiring them. In fact, I think they'll soon forget all about those things. Men in other cultures and in the past never saw women with shaved legs or underarms and still desired then. Men in certain tribes desire women with bald heads.

Sure but they still had gender norms and gender expression. They were still very much down for body adornment and gendered sexual display.

The more resources humans have the more they indulge it.

I'm saying if it was thrown away. All women buzz their heads, stop shaving, and throw away makeup. Heterosexual men would still obviously want to fuck them. As evidenced by history and other cultures today. We're really just primates when it comes down to it. Female primates don't have gender.

Sure but they still have preferences.

If you suppressed gendered display it would re emerge in other ways. It’s what humans do.

I take neutrality for granted. Femininity is something artificial that is only expected of women. The opposite of femininity is really neutrality, not masculinity.

This is a key idea. I think masculinity’s neutral aspect is cloudy. Yes, traditional society took “men” and “masculinity”to be the natural order.

But masculinity isn’t neutral.

I’m not clear on how one is constructed but not the other is not? I’d think they are both a mix of cultural and natural drives.

Well, of course it is. I know it's harder. I'm not saying it will be easy for you. But if you live in a place where you can express yourself safely, then you shouldn't worry about what other people think. Do you really worry about social approval?

Of course I worry. I’ve already lost friends simply because people know I am a crossdresser. It’s not publicly acceptable. That’s just how it is.

I don't. If I did, I wouldn't be the way I am. The kind of woman I am is upsetting to some in society, but it doesn't make me change my mind.

As we agreed it is more socially acceptable for women to be gender non conforming. It’s a female privilege. :) That’s a joke.

I am empathic to anyone who is gender non conforming. I know it has a social cost. I can see it. Being gender conforming as a man or woman doesn’t have a social cost.

But some men are gay. Some men are feminine. Some biological males are transsexual. Shouldn't they be proud of who they are instead of hiding it?

Ah that’s into a different question.

I thought that's what everyone has been working towards, so that GNC men do not have to hide in the shadows. Surely both sides can agree on this.

In theory, yes. But in practice I think we are light years for gnc males being normalised to everyday life.

What do you think of this article? Men and boys standing up for the rights of other males to be GNC.

Fine but I don’t think it’s going anywhere. By that I mean I don’t think society is changing that much.

Tolerance might be going up but not normalization.

But then I think gender moves along. If skirts, heels, make up etc were normalised both genders would move on to other things.

Gotcha. Thanks. I don't know why you're attracted to them either. If it wasn't a fetish, I'd say it was just a personal preference. But since it is a fetish, I think it has to have originated somewhere.

I always feel fetish is a way of ending thinking about it.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ha, I'll try not to make this another two-parter.

It’s not that this is the end all position, only that it might be a proclivity of humans.

If I believed that, I'd just give up on the world, stop being a feminist, and leave society. There would be no point to anything if that was true. However, I don't believe any of it is natural. We live under a patriarchy, and what we see under patriarchy is not natural.

But you see how I’d disagree with Red Pillers?

Yet you buy into their foundational argument that men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive. That's where all their hate flows from. I'm not saying have the feelings of disgust and superiority towards women that they have. But you accept that they are right about those things. That makes you adjacent to them at least.

Do you know the “blue pill” side? Kind of extreme on the other side. Probably too liberal feminist, pro trans, queer theory for you. They are far more tolerant of gender variance in men than Red Pill. Even if I find them too anti essentialist.

Not sure I'm familiar with them. Aren't they just regular QT people, of the "gender and sexuality can be anything you want" type? Those people buy into the same crap, they're the liberal kinksters who claim to be proud feminists while beating the shit out of women.

I’m not saying you’re stupid. This is a debate about underlying psychological drives. I’m not saying “sex and power” is the totality. It’s just prone to being strongly linked. It’s a common idea that sex and power are linked? It’s all there in science and the arts.

I personally never saw it and still don't see it.

Ha, I think they are. It’s inevitable.

Eh, I don't know. I'm just here in my corner minding my own business and handling my own life. I don't have time for the mind games of others. As long as they don't scheme and plot around me, I'm fine. I have zero tolerance for that type of stuff.

The creators' intentions might be ambiguous in that.

If I thought the show creators were sexually torturing their female characters to appeal to sadistic perverts, I wouldn't have watched GoT. Maybe I'm naive. But I didn't get that sense. They might have been doing it for pathos, to stir up hatred against the villains, but I don't believe they did it to get the viewers off.

Certainly the last season was torture.

Ha, I didn't mind the last season. It was just way too short. But at least my favorite character was still alive at the end, so that was good.

But policing language in the bedroom is a problem. I think this way of thinking has bad unintended consequences.

I'm not the literal bedroom police. I have no desire to do that. But I wouldn't knowingly associate with people who acted that way in their private lives. Hell, I won't even hang out with people who use the word "bitch" in jest.

If you suppressed gendered display it would re emerge in other ways. It’s what humans do.

That's just your theory. You have no way of knowing that.

But masculinity isn’t neutral. I’m not clear on how one is constructed but not the other is not? I’d think they are both a mix of cultural and natural drives.

Femininity is artifice and decoration. Neutrality is just neutrality.

Of course I worry. I’ve already lost friends simply because people know I am a crossdresser. It’s not publicly acceptable. That’s just how it is.

I'm sorry that's happened to you. But honestly, fuck them. You're better off without those people. I know it's not publicly acceptable for males to wear makeup and dresses in most areas. Whether it's for your purposes or because they're trans. I recognize I have things better as a GNC woman, so I don't mean to be flippant. If I'd been born male, my GNC childhood would have looked very different.

But still, try not to worry what other people think. That's the only way we'll make progress. GNC males need to not hide in the shadows. I agree we're still far from normalization, but it's getting better. It's certainly better than it was 50 or 30 years ago.

I always feel fetish is a way of ending thinking about it.

Well, a fetish has an origin of some type. We can still think about it while acknowledging it's a fetish.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Argh I've kept it a two parter.

I'm using google docs to write up replies now.

hope it still kind of makes sense.

I believed that, I'd just give up on the world, stop being a feminist, and leave society. There would be no point to anything if that was true. However, I don't believe any of it is natural. We live under a patriarchy, and what we see under patriarchy is not natural.

But surely you can believe that things can be bad and natural?

Do you think human nature is going to be innately good?

It has to be more complex than that.

Pleasure has to be more complicated.

Games contain winners and losers, dominating and defeating players who are friends. That game playing pleasure mimics things in real life that are rightfully considered wrong. But they exist on a spectrum. That’s the complication of life.

When you play a game with someone there is pleasure in defeating a friend. But it should not be taken literally.

But you see how I’d disagree with Red Pillers?

Yet you buy into their foundational argument that men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive. That's where all their hate flows from. I'm not saying have the feelings of disgust and superiority towards women that they have. But you accept that they are right about those things. That makes you adjacent to them at least.

It might be a harsh reality that on average women are more likely to find dominant men attractive.

Independent of that it might be a reality that humans find power and sex deeply linked.

I think Red Pillers go about this incorrectly. They are prone to lots of bad behaviours. Lack of consent, lack of tolerance, lack of empathy, lack of awareness.

They celebrate the Dark Triad. Those behaviours often ARE attractive to women. But that is often unhealthy.

Do you know the “blue pill” side?

Not sure I'm familiar with them. Aren't they just regular QT people, of the "gender and sexuality can be anything you want" type? Those people buy into the same crap, they're the liberal kinksters who claim to be proud feminists while beating the shit out of women.

That’s probably them then. There are extreme activities certainly. People have different lines.

I’m not saying “sex and power” is the totality. It’s just prone to being strongly linked. It’s a common idea that sex and power are linked? It’s all there in science and the arts.

I personally never saw it and still don't see it.

Well I think it’s there in most places. Common in culture.

I'm not the literal bedroom police. I have no desire to do that. But I wouldn't knowingly associate with people who acted that way in their private lives. Hell, I won't even hang out with people who use the word "bitch" in jest.

To be fair I think we all kind of do have to police the bedroom to a degree. Consent only goes so far. I don’t think we can say everything is ok if there is consent. I don’t think we can say there isn’t good advice about the bedroom. I guess we are deciding what the rules and advice ought to be, even if it isn’t the law.

If you suppressed gendered display it would re emerge in other ways. It’s what humans do. That's just your theory. You have no way of knowing that.

Sure but that’s part of the debate. I make my case.

But masculinity isn’t neutral. I’m not clear on how one is constructed but not the other is not? I’d think they are both a mix of cultural and natural drives. Femininity is artifice and decoration. Neutrality is just neutrality.

I strongly disagree on that. I think it’s a mistake to see masculinity as neutrality.

You yourself have said you think your own masculinity maybe some kind of natural condition. You may be naturally masculinized in some way. It can’t be both an actual condition and neutrality. Masculinity does not come naturally to most women. They don’t want to express it.

Yes, mascline dominated cultures can place masculinity up as the “social normal” but that is a cultural trait promoting one aspect of humanity. Whereas both masculinity and femininity, even if they are placeholders are natural.

Of course I worry. I’ve already lost friends simply because people know I am a crossdresser. It’s not publicly acceptable. That’s just how it is. I'm sorry that's happened to you. But honestly, fuck them. You're better off without those people. I know it's not publicly acceptable for males to wear makeup and dresses in most areas. Whether it's for your purposes or because they're trans. I recognize I have things better as a GNC woman, so I don't mean to be flippant. If I'd been born male, my GNC childhood would have looked very different.

But still, try not to worry what other people think. That's the only way we'll make progress. GNC males need to not hide in the shadows. I agree we're still far from normalization, but it's getting better. It's certainly better than it was 50 or 30 years ago.

Ach I’m middle aged now and I don’t think there has really been any progress in my life. (middle aged crossdressers, the worst lol) It’s still effectively underground and taboo. Society may even be moving towards less tolerance. Maybe that’s part of polarization. I’ve probably heard more negative comments now than when I was young. Crossdresser are probably feeling secondary issues by the trans debate pulling them in. But then I see crossdressers are related to trans. Of course I don’t say they have to identify as trans but they appear to have a related condition. When people say the trans umbrella it might as well be “gender variant conditions.” Gender is a messy, complex topic.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

lol it's getting too long

If there's anything I've missed let me know

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (13 children)

Part 2

I don’t feel like it’s entirely sexual for me. In that sense I empathise with women who are attracted to expressing masculinity, even if it is not sexual, even if they do not identify as transmen. I can empathise with a woman saying they are non binary, even if I don’t always agree with some of the ideology.

If it was simple as an event happened and that triggered it then it would be obvious for researchers to find and it would vary a lot more. Instead the rare is consistent in populations.

You don’t accept a woman can naturally enjoy expressing femininity but you do enjoy expressing masculinity.

You also don’t see what people find enjoyable about femininity.

That seems like naturalising masculinity and femininity.

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes? What do you mean by "intensely sexual," just passionate? If you've had good sex with women without involving BDSM (by which I mean violence and power plays), then perhaps you just like women who are active in bed?

Kind of a question I wonder. But seemingly I enjoy women more passionate than is assumed normal, than men like, than society deems normal. I don’t like it when I go to bed with a woman and I’m expected to be the dominant eternal initiator. For many that seems part of their sexual mindset. But I’m not matched with it. That’s commonly how it is. It took me a while to realise that. Of course being a crossdresser seems to signal to some now a sign of my uncontrolled criminal sexual desire. Which is not what they’re going to get.

I like women who enjoy my femininity. It’s about matching, I want them to enjoy it. GC will take that as me imposing it. But it’s the opposite. I want honest inspired desire. In my experience it works better than way. That seems reasonable to me.

That's perfectly reasonable. I would never expect my partner to do all the work in a sexual relationship. That seems selfish. Sex is a two-way street. One person can't just lie there doing nothing. It's about sharing pleasure.

I get the theory but I think it’s just how it is. Most women whan that active male role and to be passive, it’s their validation. That’s my impression.

What's aggressive passion? I mean, there's passion, and then there's aggression. Passion in my book would be vigorous, lustful, active sex.

Making the moves. Tactile, sexual talk, lustful actions, sexual display, sexual fantasising, innuendo, sex game talk, dominant sexual talk.

Really, I mean do they just lie there like they're dead or something?

They can do.

I mean I’m sure you’ve read about it plenty on /r/sex.

If sexual columnists went by popular questions it would be pages of married men and women complaining of “lack of desire” mostly from women. This is true of couples who are otherwise happy with each other, they want to make it work.

Though I’m unsure how much is connected to “average desire” and how much is “sex role.”

I have never slept with a woman obviously, but that would creep me the fuck out. We have other straight women on this sub. I find it hard to believe most straight women are just non-responsive in bed. How many have you been with, if you're comfortable answering.

About a dozen, but I’m not really a good example. Probably fewer than average. So many sex roles are expected, I only learn a lot of this after living life. I realise how much overwhelming sexual desire is expected from men. As I said I was never “normal” so I live in a world where I have to learn second hand what people expect from men in bed.

There is at times a strong expectation that I’d be hitting on women I am friends with, that if I am friends I must be intent on hitting on them or that I’d take crazy risks for sex.

I was going to say people have an odd assumption that “men will hit on anything,” like a dog humping a cushion. But then yes, men probably are more often like this.

Well jewellery is popular, you can see the aesthetic appeal of it?

Not personally, no. I think it looks weird. All of it. But I understand some people like it for aesthetic reasons.

Ah well there you go.

But there is a pattern to these desires and expressions.

Patterns of masculinity and femininity.

But what do you mean by erotic play? You made a distinction between that and sex that is physically based.

What is erotic play? I mean you can see countless articles on the idea.

“Top 10 ways to spice up your sex life.” It’s banal stuff because the ideas are so common and they work.

So you basically just want attention in bed? Like you're passive, so that means you don't prefer to do anything to a woman's body, you just want her to do things to your body?

Not quite. But I’ve ended up in a situation where I do the work and I’m getting nothing much. Them doing the work doesn’t feel natural or work for them. Or ultimately me.

I’m not actively saying ”women ought to play this role” my desires chronologically came first and are seemingly essentially to me.

Do you think it would have inevitably turned sexual, if you had been allowed to explore femininity in preschool and have it normalized for you?

Unsure. I doubt it. To me my sexual feelings towards femininity aren’t that far from common popular feelings about femininity. Most of society see femininity, and masculinity, as deeply connected to sexuality.

You really seem obsessed with this idea of masculinity.

Well of course. We all are obsessed with it and femininity here on this sub. One way or another.

It seems like you just think of it constantly. Like is it insecurity, like you think other men have this quality that you don't have and feel inferior to them because of it? Is there some sexual component to it, like in cuckolding?

Eh no. Not for me.

It’s personal, yes, and intellectually interesting. Masculinity and femininity are interesting topics. Deeply connected to how we behave and think.

I bet a lot of men are totally oblivious to these types of thoughts you're having.

Of course. Conforming people take it all for granted. As it would be.

Some men really don't give a shit about this whole thing. I'll have to talk to my partner about this in greater detail, but he's never been tortured over masculinity like you seem to be.

Ha well I don’t want to bring him to it. It’s bad enough you’re reporting back you’re talking to self confessed crossdresser.

We have no idea what the mass population would want in an equal, non-patriarchal society. Everyone in this society has already been indoctrinated since birth.

Well to me it’s significant there isn’t a society without “gender.”

So we're back to you assuming little girls are born to naturally want to be dominated and abused by men, because "the desires seem too strong" for you to believe otherwise? Do you really not see how incredibly misogynistic this is?

No I can see the problems with it. Completely.

I don’t think it’s all healthy.

I think it can be healthier.

But I question how absolutely equal, gender free it can be if we do have some essential differences. I don’t see how that would work. That’s into another interesting question.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Ha, part two.

I don’t feel like it’s entirely sexual for me.

That's interesting. I was under the impression it was just something you only entertained in your erotic life. But there are aspects you enjoy that are totally non-sexual?

If it was simple as an event happened and that triggered it then it would be obvious for researchers to find and it would vary a lot more.

Well, it might not just be one event or one incident. There are many things we don't know about the human mind and how our sexualities develop. People can go through the same experiences and come out with different desires and urges.

You don’t accept a woman can naturally enjoy expressing femininity but you do enjoy expressing masculinity.

I don't know if "enjoy" is the right word? It's just how I'm comfortable. I could not present feminine without wanting to kill myself. I realize that's extreme, but that's how I feel. But I don't take pleasure in cultivating my hair or clothes to be masculine. I just want to wear stuff that I'm comfortable in that doesn't draw undue attention to myself. I like to keep things simple.

Kind of a question I wonder. But seemingly I enjoy women more passionate than is assumed normal, than men like, than society deems normal.

Um, like how? I guess specifics would be good. I like to think I'm passionate in bed, but I don't think it makes me abnormal. My partner's last girlfriend was also really active in bed, so I don't think I'm abnormal in his experience either. We've talked about his previous partners. The first one was shy, so perhaps she fits more of your stereotype.

I don’t like it when I go to bed with a woman and I’m expected to be the dominant eternal initiator. For many that seems part of their sexual mindset. But I’m not matched with it. That’s commonly how it is. It took me a while to realise that. Of course being a crossdresser seems to signal to some now a sign of my uncontrolled criminal sexual desire. Which is not what they’re going to get.

To be honest, I have no idea what a crossdresser would be like in bed and have no stereotypes in my head about it. I don't think they'd necessarily be criminal or deviant. I might think they possibly like pretending to be the opposite sex? But even that might not be universal.

I like women who enjoy my femininity. It’s about matching, I want them to enjoy it. GC will take that as me imposing it. But it’s the opposite. I want honest inspired desire. In my experience it works better than way. That seems reasonable to me.

No argument from me. You deserve to have sexual partners who are turned on by your crossdressing. I don't think there's anything wrong with crossdressing in bed as long as more problematic elements (like sissification and forced feminization) don't come into play.

I get the theory but I think it’s just how it is. Most women whan that active male role and to be passive, it’s their validation. That’s my impression.

Validation, like how? That sounds problematic. You don't think women engage sexually for their own physical pleasure?

Making the moves. Tactile, sexual talk, lustful actions, sexual display, sexual fantasising, innuendo, sex game talk, dominant sexual talk.

Well, my partner and I both do all that stuff except for the dominant sexual talk because obviously neither of us likes BDSM.

They can do.

Yeesh, really? Even my partner's shy first girlfriend didn't act dead in bed. She was just more timid.

About a dozen, but I’m not really a good example. Probably fewer than average. So many sex roles are expected, I only learn a lot of this after living life. I realise how much overwhelming sexual desire is expected from men. As I said I was never “normal” so I live in a world where I have to learn second hand what people expect from men in bed.

Eh, well, I only have a sample size of one man, so it's not like I'm an expert. 12 women is a lot. But I don't know, I can't help but feel like maybe you're putting too much emphasis on these roles because it's your main insecurity. Leaving aside the crossdressing, which I acknowledge would be problematic for most straight women. I don't think it's that hard for a man to find a woman who is active in bed.

“Top 10 ways to spice up your sex life.” It’s banal stuff because the ideas are so common and they work.

Oh, that stuff. Well, I've done some of that, but not because I was bored. Just for variety. Erotic play doesn't have to be problematic. It doesn't have to be based in BDSM or power plays. My partner and I have done stuff like play with sex dice, sex toys, and have done role play. Those things can be wholesome, not depraved.

Not quite. But I’ve ended up in a situation where I do the work and I’m getting nothing much. Them doing the work doesn’t feel natural or work for them. Or ultimately me.

Well, I don't blame you. I wouldn't find that very pleasurable either. I feel like you need a good balance. At least for me. I would be bored just lying there doing nothing. And I'd be frustrated if I had to do everything.

Well of course. We all are obsessed with it and femininity here on this sub. One way or another.

Ha, well, you might be a little more obsessed than others.

Of course. Conforming people take it all for granted. As it would be.

Yeah, but an outer conforming appearance doesn't mean that a man is doing all the sexual stuff you seem to assume he's doing. My partner isn't sexually dominant and it's never been a hindrance to him.

Ha well I don’t want to bring him to it. It’s bad enough you’re reporting back you’re talking to self confessed crossdresser.

LOL, he knows that I talk about "gender stuff" online. I'm happy to pose specific questions if you have them. I did talk with him a little about masculinity. He doesn't seem to have any conflicts over it. The main thing for him was that his dad put a lot of pressure on him growing up and he didn't really feel like he lived up to his dad's ideal of the "perfect son." He's the oldest son. Not that my partner was ever effeminate, but that his dad didn't think he was enough of an academic or athletic achiever.

But in terms of sex, it doesn't seem like he's ever had a conflict. He's slept with three women. Me, and two prior girlfriends. He's handsome (I might be biased) and was popular with girls. He's a sweet guy, goofy, laid back, has a gentle nature. He's definitely not a dominant or a sadist and has never acted in that role. I asked him if he ever had any sexual insecurities, and he said not really, maybe his penis size when he was a teenager. He just wanted to know he was big enough to satisfy women. We're well matched in terms of libido and he says I'm his best sexual partner because of our chemistry and matching libidos.

I could ask him more if you wanted. I might also post a separate thread about whether sexual stereotypes of men and women are true.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (11 children)

I always feel fetish is a way of ending thinking about it. Well, a fetish has an origin of some type. We can still think about it while acknowledging it's a fetish.

Do you think gay people expressing gender non conformity as part of their sexuality are fetishists?

What about common female sexual fantasies? Are they fetishists?

I don’t feel like it’s entirely sexual for me. That's interesting. I was under the impression it was just something you only entertained in your erotic life. But there are aspects you enjoy that are totally non-sexual?

Well I enjoy the female aesthetic. It’s as simple as I look at female fashion and think I’d like to express that. But there are other aspects to my life that possibly are non conforming. In this way I genuinely don’t know. I never quite fit a lot of masculine territories. I was always kind of split.

But being a progressive person I accepted that “gender norms weren’t actual things.” I was always in two minds about it. I accepted masculinity and femininity were things that might be natural but really not to be taken that seriously. But then found in life they really did matter. You can’t act like they didn’t. You will be judged on it. You can’t have people making assumptions.

For example, I never got into sport, especially team sports, especially the fanatical tribal support. I enjoyed lots of Reality television.

Now I didn’t think these were particularly gender non conforming at all. Only later I realised how much I’d be judged on these things. It was too “gay.” That’s how people judge things, even people who consider themselves liberal. A gay man can do those things but straight men cannot.

I also dressed probably not conservatively enough. I had to remove that. For example something as simple as tiger pink stripe skater shoes were questioned. I assumed that was acceptable as a casual punk fashion thing. Not extreme at all, as casual as ripped jeans. Was it my crossdressing affecting my choice? Was I choosing them as a form of displacement? I don’t know, I don’t think it’s extreme. But it would be commented on. So dressing down becomes important. Maybe I’m being policed more than others because people made assumptions.

Obviously men discussing sex was an issue. Their aggressive experiences and desires weren’t something I related to. I wasn’t someone they’d share porn with, that goes on.

So it doesn’t matter what I think, why it is, I have to act on gender norms. I have to try and conform.

If it was simple as an event happened and that triggered it then it would be obvious for researchers to find and it would vary a lot more.

Well, it might not just be one event or one incident. There are many things we don't know about the human mind and how our sexualities develop. People can go through the same experiences and come out with different desires and urges.

But I just don’t see the pattern in the world. If it was entirely down to experiences the incidences would vary a lot. It would be significant. But we see the same patterns the world over.

You don’t accept a woman can naturally enjoy expressing femininity but you do enjoy expressing masculinity. I don't know if "enjoy" is the right word? It's just how I'm comfortable. I could not present feminine without wanting to kill myself. I realize that's extreme, but that's how I feel.

That does sound extreme. I think most women would find that quite alien. Even if they don’t think you don’t have the right to reject it.

But I don't take pleasure in cultivating my hair or clothes to be masculine. I just want to wear stuff that I'm comfortable in that doesn't draw undue attention to myself. I like to keep things simple.

This is the masculine as neutrality.

What about formal occasions?

Kind of a question I wonder. But seemingly I enjoy women more passionate than is assumed normal, than men like, than society deems normal. Um, like how? I guess specifics would be good.

I’m sure I’d given a description before.

“Making the moves. Tactile, sexual talk, lustful actions, sexual display, sexual fantasising, innuendo, sex game talk, dominant sexual talk.”

Pinning, forceful kissing, grabbing without asking or context.

I like to think I'm passionate in bed, but I don't think it makes me abnormal. My partner's last girlfriend was also really active in bed, so I don't think I'm abnormal in his experience either. We've talked about his previous partners. The first one was shy, so perhaps she fits more of your stereotype.

Sexually passive women are far more common.

That does not mean they are without desire. They desire that “dominant male” form. Don’t blame the messenger.

To be honest, I have no idea what a crossdresser would be like in bed and have no stereotypes in my head about it.

Ha well I’d think it wouldn’t be your thing.

Here’s a thing that’s done, putting on make up on each other. It’s intimate and sensual. Both creating visual pleasure and incense physical intimacy.

But what about sexually passive men?

Does that mean anything to you?

I like women who enjoy my femininity. It’s about matching, I want them to enjoy it. GC will take that as me imposing it. But it’s the opposite. I want honest inspired desire. In my experience it works better than way. That seems reasonable to me. No argument from me. You deserve to have sexual partners who are turned on by your crossdressing. I don't think there's anything wrong with crossdressing in bed as long as more problematic elements (like sissification and forced feminization) don't come into play.

A lot of that seems over the top. And a lot of it looks like “forcing” to enjoy something taboo that both parties enjoy.

I get the theory but I think it’s just how it is. Most women want that active male role and to be passive, it’s their validation. That’s my impression. Validation, like how? That sounds problematic. You don't think women engage sexually for their own physical pleasure?

Their pleasure is from being the “target,” the “prize,” the figure of maximum desire.

That IS their sexual pleasure.

I mean what do you think these women are enjoying about it?

Have you asked other women about this?

They can do. Yeesh, really? Even my partner's shy first girlfriend didn't act dead in bed. She was just more timid.

Have you discussed this with other women?

Eh, well, I only have a sample size of one man, so it's not like I'm an expert. 12 women is a lot.

If that number is higher than average it likely comes from dissatisfaction on my side. Not finding compatible partners. Which is understandable.

But I don't know, I can't help but feel like maybe you're putting too much emphasis on these roles because it's your main insecurity. Leaving aside the crossdressing, which I acknowledge would be problematic for most straight women. I don't think it's that hard for a man to find a woman who is active in bed.

I think you might be underestimating how rare it is.

“Top 10 ways to spice up your sex life.” It’s banal stuff because the ideas are so common and they work. Oh, that stuff. Well, I've done some of that, but not because I was bored. Just for variety. Erotic play doesn't have to be problematic. It doesn't have to be based in BDSM or power plays. My partner and I have done stuff like play with sex dice, sex toys, and have done role play. Those things can be wholesome, not depraved.

But the mild BDSM is common correct?

Well of course. We all are obsessed with it and femininity here on this sub. One way or another. Ha, well, you might be a little more obsessed than others.

Well of course I hope so, or I’ve been doing it wrong.

Of course. Conforming people take it all for granted. As it would be. Yeah, but an outer conforming appearance doesn't mean that a man is doing all the sexual stuff you seem to assume he's doing.

Oh I agree.

There is only an indirect relationship.

My partner isn't sexually dominant and it's never been a hindrance to him.

But he isn’t sexually passive either.

Ha well I don’t want to bring him to it. It’s bad enough you’re reporting back you’re talking to a self confessed crossdresser.

LOL, he knows that I talk about "gender stuff" online. I'm happy to pose specific questions if you have them. I did talk with him a little about masculinity. He doesn't seem to have any conflicts over it. The main thing for him was that his dad put a lot of pressure on him growing up and he didn't really feel like he lived up to his dad's ideal of the "perfect son." He's the oldest son. Not that my partner was ever effeminate, but that his dad didn't think he was enough of an academic or athletic achiever.

The male role of “doer” remains strong.

It’s like that thing about “women have to be, men have to do.” Which both have issues.

But in terms of sex, it doesn't seem like he's ever had a conflict. He's slept with three women. Me, and two prior girlfriends. He's handsome (I might be biased) and was popular with girls. He's a sweet guy, goofy, laid back, has a gentle nature. He's definitely not a dominant or a sadist and has never acted in that role. I asked him if he ever had any sexual insecurities, and he said not really, maybe his penis size when he was a teenager. He just wanted to know he was big enough to satisfy women. We're well matched in terms of libido and he says I'm his best sexual partner because of our chemistry and matching libidos.

Well I’m happy for you in a sincere way. I’m obviously not the poly kind.

I could ask him more if you wanted. I might also post a separate thread about whether sexual stereotypes of men and women are true.

That’s a good question.

Although I can enjoy this sub it can be less, general. Less proportional. The responses are going to be biased. Even my position is very rare.