(Mostly for QT but anyone can answer): If "woman" is an identity then wouldn't it follow that feminist woman who don't want to be oppressed by gender roles should just all identify as transmen/NB?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from self.GCdebatesQT

This is perhaps the most nonsensical thing to me about the QT position. If we can choose our gender identity and feminine people are oppressed by masculine people on the basis of gender and not sex then why would anyone outside of pure masochists identify as a woman? QT seems to think that even people who look female that identify as men will be treated as men so why would people simply not do this to avoid the discrimination that comes with being a woman-identified person?

I think we would all see the ridiculousness of this if someone said "Black people can just identify as white to escape racism" but sex and gender is somehow different.

all 10 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]worried19 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This seems to be what most non-binary people think. I sympathize with the ones who have bodily dysphoria, but it seems like the rest just have a lot of social distress around gender and don't "feel like" women. Since they don't want to be treated like women, they say they're not women. But does that mean they think the rest of us somehow want the mistreatment we get? I shouldn't have to identify out of being female to be respected as a human being.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

why would anyone outside of pure masochists identify as a woman

LOL, it's funny that in that situation, the only ones who would identify as women would probably be males.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

QT here: A trans person will have to deal with the status of the gender the transitioned into. That does not mean they will face all of it at once, due to transition beeing a process and they also have to deal with being trans in society where most people aren't indifferent to their trans status. That much is obvious.

With that out of the way let me adress your question:

Why wouldn't feminist identify out of oppression? 1) because it actually does not solve anything and makes it harder to deal with the biology based oppression that's impossible to identify out of. There is also the thing that in our current society identity only goes so far. Passing is necessary to actually get rid of that oppression, which requires lifelong medication in most cases and causes infertility, which is a high price to pay.

These side effects lead nicely into 2) While oppression may lead to dysphoric symptoms, these symptoms shouldn't be treated the same way gender dysphoria is. Mostly out of concerns for the patients long term health, since the changes are irreversible and might not be desired by the paitent once the external pressure is gone, which may lead to regret down the line once the external conditions change on their own.

As to your comparison. It honestly does not really fit. If a black person underwent the same process as the king of Pop, then sure, they might be able to get away from racism. But just saying I am white won't get them far outside of circles where statements like these are respected, which aren't the racist circles to begin with. At leat in general.

P.S.: I also have never seen the statement of just identity out of oppression outside of burning down straw men, but I'm also more connected with GC and transmeds and am completely out of the loop otherwise.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do agree that it is different for trans people who actually pass most of the time as their desired gender. Like I don't think it's total. Transmen still face issues around things like medical care relating to their female anatomy and transwomen will always have vestiges of male privilege based on socialization and upbringing but I can accept that being perceived as a woman will result in a certain amount of sexism while being perceived as a man may confer certain advantages socially.

My question is more addressing the strictly QT idea (as opposed to a more transmedicalist one) that people are strictly oppressed based on gender identity. If this is true than it should be possible for a woman to simply opt-out of oppression by not identifying as a woman which as you say it obviously isn't. We hear a lot from QT types that dysphoria is not required to be trans and passing is not required to be trans but how will a "masculine transwoman" be treated as anything other than a man if that is how most people will perceive them? You recognize sex-based oppression as a thing which happens but many transactivists do not. Anyway, thank you for responding.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was talking to my husband about that. Since I don't exactly 'feel like a woman' should I be NB instead? He said that it wouldn't change anything about my sex based oppression and would add more on top for being non-standard. He'd know, right?

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I agree with your husband. I don't see how men would likely functionally treat you any differently (for better or worse) just due to identifying a certain way but I have seen hardcore TRAs say this kind of thing, that oppression is based on gender identity and not sex...It's illogical.

[–]tamingthemindradfem (GC) 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

GC radfem here. I'm a woman and I don't consider myself to have a "gender". On the old reddit sub, the pro-trans user elementgermanium claimed that I wasn't a woman, but an "agender female" (I guess to be consistent with the "identifying as ___" script). The ideology is baffling to me.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hi, I vaguely remember you from the old subs. Glad you found your way over here.

Anyway, yes I've heard that argument from several of them before and it's what I've had in mind when asking this. It is completely weird that they don't seem to think people are treated certain ways based on their bodies or how they appear to others but just based on what they think they are.

[–]tamingthemindradfem (GC) 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad to see you here too! I always enjoy your posts - you're a good thinker and writer.