Both: What if we reframed the issue as "AFAB rights", "AFAB spaces", etc?

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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Transmen are included by radfem support for abortion access, birth control, affordable healthcare, condemnation of rape culture and rape apologists, and everything else aside from radfems pretending sex isn t real.

If transmen choose to remove themselves from feminism because it acknowledges where female oppression actually comes from, it’s not radfems being exclusive. It’s them being so distanced from reality that they cannot accept any support that uses the words woman or female. They exclude themselves.

Instead of bending over backwards with newspeak we need to stick to our guns and stop catering to the gender special crowd.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Preach. Before the sub went down, we had several threads about how trans natal females didn't feel included in our feminism because we don't cater to their identity. Nobody is forcing them to join us, if they don't like that we consider them women, they are free to look elsewhere: I am sure the inclusive feminism trans natal males created will be a welcoming space for them and their biological needs, especially given that it's not exactly an uncommon sentiment that trans natal females feel talked over by trans natal males. 🙄 I can't wait to see a trans natal female trying to talk about periods, pregnancy and abortion and have a trans natal male educating "him" on those topics.

My personal favorite thread on the inclusion of trans natal females in radical feminism, however, was by a poster who made a long speech about the ways in which we could be more inclusive of trans natal females. Except in every comment they wrote there was a TMAM dogma thrown in. Why the fuck would women who hate being women to the point that they call themselves men want to be included in a movement about women is beyond me.

Also, I just refuse to play semantic games to cater to gender specials at this point. A debate topic that I have seen often is that it's wrong to stop using preferred pronouns and labels for the ones who are bad: I completely agree, the concept is idiotic no matter what, so I refuse to pander to it for anyone. Why should we make an exception for trans natal females and prove that there are times in which language can be twisted? Calling them men is less dangerous than calling men women, but the idea behind both is the same, and accepting one automatically validates the other.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Oh man I think I remember that massive diatribe about including transmen by using the magic slogans every third sentence. She was always banging on about stupid stuff. Reminded me of cirlingmyownvoid or the special one who seriously went by xer. Maybe the same person?

It’s made clearer and clearer by tra that they don’t want acceptance, they want unquestioning acquiescence and obedience. Doesn’t matter if it hurts all women, these coddled babies have very important whims and zero ability to handle anything that isn’t immediate satisfaction.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

If it was the same person, then it was an alt-account. The one I am talking about was something like Charmandy or similar stuff. But frankly I do believe it was a genuine woman who just drowned in the kool-aid.

Mask/Void, for all the crap they say, never really called themselves a biological female (only female in the legal sense) and they didn't seem to give an actual shit about trans natal females anyway, I don't think they would have wasted time trying to teach us how to include them.

The one with the weird pronouns (I know who you are talking about, but I don't remember their username) would have never stooped so low and called themselves a boring "cis" woman.

As for the rest, yes! Apparently, delayed gratification, character growth and self-acceptance have been replaced by "I want it all, I want it now and you are going to give it to me".

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Thaaats the one! Charmondy! ~you can include transmen in radical feminism by not being a big bad terf and accepting gender as your lord and saviour :)~

Honestly it seems like every tra poster from the subreddit was an obvious troll. Like airlilyariel who was definitely getting donated ovaries implanted next year to have a baby.

Masks never claimed to be female but spent hours screeching that he’s not male and never was.

The same posters would ask twenty stupid, bad faith questions in a row like “why isn’t the penis female?” Then say everyone there was obsessed with hating transwomen and never even talk about gender when they got an answer. It’s weird looking back and realising that even the supposedly good faith qt posters were just..brimming with shit.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Like airlilyariel who was definitely getting donated ovaries implanted next year to have a baby.

Wait, what? How the fuck did I miss that? I have seen people claiming that trans natal males getting pregnant was something that was going to happen 5 years ahead tops, but I have never seen someone being so direct about it. I don't even recognize that username to be honest.

Masks never claimed to be female but spent hours screeching that he’s not male and never was.

I missed that, too, and I have spent an inordinate amount of time butting heads with them. They never said they weren't male to me, just that they hated males and didn't want to be associated with them in any way (which made them women). They also had very peculiar views on friendship (friends exist to lie to you to make you feel better) and on the fact that if you don't want to fuck trans people and they ask you directly why, you should lie or shut about it but never tell them the truth.

There were posters who weren't textbook TRAs: I still disagreed with them, but some of them didn't seem like they were from an alternative reality. Others... spoke like aliens.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Oh man it was a real treat. Ariel claimed he was biologically female, and had ovaries. Then went to he will be receiving a uterus and ovaries and be birthing happy little babies by 2022. They were like 19 and about as emotionally developed as a newborn. Absolutely insisted that hormones make SRY genes obsolete and cause males to have female genetics and everything. Absolutely amazing to read. Needs popcorn.

Masks insisted to me every time I spoke to him that he’s not male or a man because men and males are all evil monsters and he’s just the most delicate poor widdle lady being attacked by every man outside AND the evil cis women who totally wanted him murdered. Self pity stacked twelve feet high and nothing else was masks.

Transmaiden was the worst imo. Mods let them get away with a full year of admittedly shitposting and detailing for fun. It took multiple rape apologist posts for any trolls to be ousted.

I probably spoke to some sane tra posters but damned if I can remember them for all the absolute nutters.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Mask did use to say that they were a little flower so they must have been a woman in comparison to men, but it always seemed to me like they were saying it more as a wishful thinking kind of thing than because they actually believed it. Then again, they believed in other insane stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Transmaiden is the only poster I have ever blocked. Their "smart" rebuttals (such as "OK, boomer!") were irritating enough, but in one thread they posted messages like "Ah ah, I am seriously suicidal now!!!" and that was it for me.

I really have no clue about the first one you are talking about. Damn, I missed some quality tantrums!!!!

[–]littlerbear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Did you ever go back and forth with 'the professor'? They accused me of 'shitting on trans women' at every opportunity and got pissed off if I critiqued the quality of the studies the posted. Won't miss that individual.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't know who this person is (or maybe I removed them from my memory?) 🤔

Did they have professor in their username?

[–]littlerbear 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wasn't LilyAriel or whoever the one who said that he'd had part of his liver removed to make room for female reproductive organs?

Transmaiden was really a piece of work.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yessssss omg yes that’s him!! Transmaiden was an asshole and idk why he was ever tolerated and protected by the mods tbh. He got a pass for some of the most blatant misogyny.

[–]littlerbear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah. He was more infuriating than some of the others over there.

[–]littlerbear 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

brimming with shit.

Yes, Lord. The....peculiar manners of thinking are really quite challenging at times. Like in terms of keeping my temper and not going full 'what the fuck is wrong with you? How do you believe this bullshit?"

[–]DistantGlimmer 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

trans natal females anyway

I actually remember Masks saying once they liked transmen. I noted it to myself because they clearly hate women, men, other transwomen, themselves, seriously I don't think I've ever seen someone so full of hate for the vast majority of humanity so I was like "well that's one small group they don't hate at least".

NeverBeenStardust is the other one's name. Had many discussions with them where they'd come right to the edge of actually getting some GC point and then dance back from it. So annoying. I don't know if it was bad faith or simply someone young and not willing to really open their mind.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The only time I saw Mask talking about trans natal females was when someone asked them to rank the genders according to how they felt safe in their presence.

Trans natal females ranked higher than "cis" men, so the poster they were debating with wondered why, given that, I think, the entire argument came from the usual denial about sex and socialization being in any way important. So basically, trans men and men are absolutely the same level of man, but for some reasons they felt safer with trans men. I wonder why... 🙄

Yes, Stardust is exactly the one I was thinking of. I can't say I interacted with them that much, though.

[–]DistantGlimmer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If I remember correctly it came up with me because they were going on with their usual over-the-top routine about how all masculinity is Satanic so I asked them if they hated people who literally opt-in to masculine gender roles (transmen) and they were like "no, I like transmen" which doesn't seem very consistent but I guess it is good there's one group they don't loathe.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Classic Mask!!!

It is indeed nice that at least there was someone they didn't loathe. Even though I think that one of them not being a doormat in Mask's presence would have probably changed their mind.

[–]littlerbear 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

would have never stooped so low and called themselves a boring "cis" woman.

I know who you're talking about. I always had weird interactions with this person. Kind of like "I never said I'm not female, I'm just not a woman. I'm a female man." I find this crap exhausting. A female man. Jesus wept.

[–]littlerbear 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The whole thing about how trans men should be housed with men in prisons because...gender was something else, but not in a good way. You're right about how many trans people and their allies want capitulation, not acceptance.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh lawd the insistence that being misgendered is basically a war crime and everyone else in prison will respect their gender identity was something else.

[–]littlerbear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's almost like they've never met men. Men treat men like crap too. It's not like jail is some brotherhood of rebels. A lot of these people must be very young and sheltered.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not surprised. From what I’ve seen it is mostly an argument from teenagers. They’ve got no idea what the implications of their stance are.

[–]littlerbear 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That crazy nonsense! Right. Trans men aren't included in feminism because we don't acknowledge trans men as men and are therefore oppressed, so feminism should re-order itself to accommodate trans men's needs to be recognized as men, yet included in feminism.

[–]littlerbear 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Instead of bending over backwards with newspeak we need to stick to our guns and stop catering to the gender special crowd.

ALL OF THIS.