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Reddit's pre-covid anti-antivaxxer hysteria: Trying to nail down the time frame.(self)

37 points36 points39 points submitted by wristaction

This is a kinda memory-holish thing I keep coming back to, or at least something suggestive of propaganda priming afoot which no one seems to refer to.

Long before January 2020, I want to say at least as far back as 2018, the rage among the bien pensants of reddit was the existence of antivaxxers. It was intense, wide-ranging and sustained. "Antivaxxer" was thrown around like "racist" or "homophobe" and anti-antivaxxer histrionics polluted every sub and, at one point, most threads.

It always seemed forced to me. Not that it wasn't pursued with extreme zeal, but that the zeal was fixed around a strategic instrument, like a campaign of one sort or another. At the time I suspected that this anti-antivaxxer as a political identity phenomenon was Democrats in pursuit of their Bush-era 'antiscience Christian' kulturkamph, attempting to re-tool it for an era in which kicking at Christians is clearly kicking down at a defeated opponent. I'm sure for many it was. It could also have been a flex from Big Pharma. Years before, Big Pharma rolled out it's genital warts vaccine, seeking a nationwide windfall of public school money, with an astroturf campaign which warned parents not to be like those Christians who'd rather their daughters die of cervical cancer than protect them from an STD.

In any case, it'd be interesting to see when and how the great anti-antivaxxer scare of 201n got started and when it petered out. I use the custom time span filter on google and it kicks back stuff from two months ago. If anyone has any informed guesses or familiarity with the phenomenon, please discuss.

all 18 comments

[deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

One thing that sticks out in my mind is the movie Vaxxed or whatever it was called, and especially the celebrities (De Niro?) and RFK Jr. being involved. I don't remember vaccines being so contentious before that, but then again maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

bjam27 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun 3 years ago

I think you're right but even more was the "vaccines cause autism" thing where ever it came from was a big turning point for pro-vax. That was the ridiculous Alex Jones type thing people needed to make fun of it and to discredit anyone who disagreed.

jet199 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

Combined with the sheer number of (often self declared) autistic people on social media who see that diagnosis as a mark of pride rather than a very serious disability which can leave someone incommunicable and dependant for the whole of their lives.

Anyone who points out parents might want to avoid having a kid with autism, through any cause, if they have the choice will get tarred as some kind of moral devil.

wristaction[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

I think the "causes autism" thing was from that Lancette study which was issued or retracted in 2011. The forced "anti-antivaxxer" hysteria I'm talking about came much later.

It also came as a highly polarized narrative plied by progressives against people they perceived to be to the right of them, despite that the effects of antivaxxerism (outbreaks of measels and such) were entirely localized to the deepest blue counties in the country, evidencing that the typical antivaxxer was not the flyover, trailer park Christian cultural boogieman of their narrative but rather the organic vegan hippie mom in their own backyards. So the entire anti-antivaxxer kulturkamph was falsely-premised and illegitimate to begin with.

jet199 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

In Europe the anti vax movement has always been mostly left wing and far more popular among minorities (although churches were also clearly involved).

[deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Oh, I remember that well. It was Rolling Stone magazine who published the now infamous article from Wakefield I believe. I think other publications had refused to run it, but R$ was trying to be cool.

hghghg 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

I remember seeing the thing you are describing, at least a few years ago, maybe as early as 2018. I was asleep then, so I remember agreeing with it. Now that I look back on it, I think it seemed like the phenomenon came on suddenly, like a popular meme that persists for a while. It seemed to be rising along with the "Karen" and "flat Earther" memes.

The site I spent the most time on was Reddit. I saw a lot of it on the meme subs like r/DankMemes, as well as in comments scattered around the site. One instance of it I remember clearly are written jokes that compare unvaccinated children to things that are dead or live only a few years. I also remember stories in r/LegalAdvice type subs about minors who allegedly were upset that their parents didn't vax them so they wanted to get vaxxed without their parents' knowledge or consent.

jet199 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

I used join in all the jeering about anti-vaxxers on reddit.

Now I actually think it kicked off because the anti vax movement got linked to women so therefore it was ripe for ridicule and misogynistic attacks. Hence the Karen link. Of course most people making the choice over vaccines are mothers so they would be the ones discussing the issues the most.

Of course there were far more influential, famous men in the anti vax movement who caused far more damage but the focus of the bullying was always on ordinary mothers making choices about their kids.

hghghg 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

This user notes that "Antivaxx memes are getting old" about 2 years ago, suggesting that anti-anti-vax memes were at their peak when it was posted. A cursory search of r/DankMemes for keywords supports this.

Some keywords that may aid you in your search:

  • anti-vax, antivaxx, and spelling variants

  • unvaccinated kids/children

  • Karen

  • polio

  • measles

  • autism

  • vaccines cause/don't cause autism

Entering these terms into Google Trends and observing the change over time may reveal some interesting patterns.

wristaction[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Good pointers. Thanks.

I also seem to remember it coming post-Net Neutrality hysteria.

wristaction[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Yes. Thanks. This is helpful. I too recall that genre of karma-farming posts in which a user would claim that he had, upon finally reaching the age of majority, snuck away from his insane antivaxxer parents and gotten vaccinated, attendant with thousands of praiseful comments extolling his stunning bravery in doing so. That's probably the peak example of it.

I found a sub called "anti-antivaxxer" which indicates it was opened in March of 2018.

wendolynne 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Vaccines had mercury in them, which was believed to cause autism. Congress passed legislation protecting pharma from lawsuits. Was that the early 2000s?

wendolynne 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/02/22/133964322/supreme-court-upholds-liability-shield-for-vaccine-makers

wendolynne 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

"In 1998, U.K. doctor Andrew Wakefield published a study in The Lancet suggesting that the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine could trigger autism. In the years after, MMR vaccination rates among 2-year-olds in England dropped below 80%. But the claim began to unravel in 2004 after journalist Brian Deer reported undisclosed conflicts of interest: Wakefield had applied for a patent on his own measles vaccine and had received money from a lawyer trying to sue companies making the MMR vaccine. Citing further concerns about ethics and misrepresentation, The Lancet retracted the paper in 2010. Shortly after, the United Kingdom's General Medical Council permanently pulled Wakefield's medical license. " https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/four-vaccine-myths-and-where-they-came

dissidentrhetoric 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

i have been on the vaccine danger topic for 15 years and the counter intelligence has always been very active. It did pick up a lot in recent years where it often became militant.

zyxzevn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Check out /s/VaccineSkepticism for updates on vax.

The parents of victims of vaccine injuries, like life-long brain damage, were put on the same page as religious extremists.
I think this image was created by Big Pharma to downplay the problems with vaccines.

I started to become very sceptical when people started promoting vaccine against measles and such. In my days no-one got any problems with these diseases. And the dangers were extremely exaggerated. Which made me aware of the deep social media manipulations. So I started looking into how well these vaccines actually worked and what the side effects are.
For the measles vaccine the problem seems that they work for a limited time, and when you get measles at a later age it gets more dangerous. So the vaccine is making the disease more dangerous instead of preventing it.

Then I saw the damage done by experimental vaccines in the 3rd world. Or Bayer's HIV-infected vaccine (censored to protein). The Guatemala Syphilis Experiments. Etc. It is clear that Big Pharma is not there to help people, and should be the last one we can trust. This includes the scientists that are on their pay-roll.

TokLwdSaNthg 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

No vaccine for me. Those things gimme the awwtism every time

Pononimus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

To summarize: it was all Marxist propaganda. Period.