all 29 comments

[–]magnora7 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I wonder if it would be possible to found an internet nation...

[–]send_nasty_stuff[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's what these guys were trying to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_(Netherlands)

[–]happysmash27 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That was actually pretty much my original vision for what is now /s/Anarkikomunismolando.

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's cool

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've something very much like that in my grand story.

Saplings commonly grow from old stumps.

A new justice system would likely need to grow within the existing ecosystem for a while get established then gradually kill the old.

There were Native American systems before there was French and English justice systems and all 3 co-existed in North America for some time before America took over.

Even now, Military justice is very different than the common justice system. And they very from state to state, as well as internationally. Further there's different justice for middle class, the rich, and the poor.

I see an open justice system developed being the foundation of a legitimate (not manufactured by elites) revolution.

[–]Zhohan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The biggest problem I see with starting your own platform to combat censorship is the platform usually gets flooded with degenerate viewpoints. For example, Voat's homepage is filled with alt-right spam. Sure, let them have a say, but when they are the majority, they scare away ordinary people trying to emigrate from Reddit.

[–]send_nasty_stuff[S] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

If you don't like 'alt right spam' then you need to out argue them and counter with another movement. Alt right spam dominates open forums for two reasons. It contains truths and so many other platforms ban dissident politics that open platforms get an overabundance of dissidents. That wouldn't be a problem if normie social media sites loosened up on censorship and actually engaged instead of contained the AR.

[–]Zhohan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I actually agree with you to some extent. If normie sites just allowed open discussion, there wouldn't be as much 'alt right spam'. Quarantining people based on politics has just centralized people with those viewpoints to 4chan, which is inherently a shitposting site, which makes alt right personalities, for the most part, act obnoxious. I know a few that are part of Discord servers that go around and look for communities to indoctrinate. They'll storm the community and shitpost, which usually makes all the decent people leave and the community dies. Most of them aren't looking to debate in the first place.

[–]send_nasty_stuff[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We tried to build an altright discussion community without the sperg issues over at r/debatealtright. It was going well until reddit banned our founding mod /u/mortalsisyphus the webmaster of rightrealist.com. He's still floating around and I might talk to him about coming over here if the climate is right. There are still some quality people over at r/debatealtright but we have no way of tracking our growth or interacting with the rest of reddit because of how censored we are.

[–]sawboss 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

If you don't like 'alt right spam' then you need to out argue them

That's not even possible on Voat. Imagine going to a synagogue to persuade people that the holocaust didn't happen.

[–]wizzwizz4 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We have our own Twitter (called Mastodon) and our own payment processor (I forget the name).

[–]sawboss 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Everyone who thinks we need the government to regulate social media needs to read up on regulatory capture. You hate monopolies? Regulation is one way to create them.

[–]send_nasty_stuff[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I know what regulatory capture is. We are far beyond regulatory capture. There is a unholy marriage between business and state in the west; you could almost call them the same entity at this point. These media companies are using a loophole in the law that classifies them as tech platforms and not publishers liable for their content. Unless you want to do away with libel laws, slander laws and regulations for the publishing industry you should support regulating these tech monopolies. These giants are also regularly violating the spirit of the 1rst amendment. They are following some vague notion of international standards (which they made up themselves and which favor their own interests, i.e. no 'hate speech' no criticism of LGBT, anti christian, pro zionism, pro central banking, pro hedonism, etc).

Then there's the issue of how import are the service they provide. The west has become so reliant on the internet and digital communication that IMO it's getting close to becoming a utility like water, roads and phone services. Imagine if social movements like the civil rights movement or the temperance movement could have been disrupted by the corporate/gov oligarchs just shutting off water, electricity and phones to political dissidents. That's how these giants are operating. Hell they are even getting into denial of banking services.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/time-for-action-chase-bank-denies-service-to-conservatives/

I'm not totally anti libertarian ideas. I enjoy a lot of what Hoppe says but we have to deal with the current legal and political situation we are living in now. In many cases the oligarchs manipulate libertarian minded voters to oppress people even further. I.e. they might 'deregulate' a certain sector of the economy but only to give it to their cronies in a secret sale and then those cronies never really break up or sell the industries to allow competitors. Capitalism is totally being stifled by this alliance but small libertarian changes actually make matters worse not better. That's why there are oligarchs that back both progressive AND libertarian factions. They use both to get their way.

[–]sawboss 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

There is a unholy marriage between business and state in the west; you could almost call them the same entity at this point.

Economic Fascism and the Power Elite | Mises Institute

Take note socialists and peace lovers: CORPORATIONS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS! D'Amato notes:


These firms, in their partnership with the state, are “granted a deliberate, representational monopoly”2 as payment for a level of control exercised by government. The iron triangles that form the fascist tripartism detailed by Higgs recall the thesis of C. Wright Mills’s groundbreaking sociological study, The Power Elite. In his masterwork, published first in 1956, Mills gives an account of an intermeshed elite made up of a “political directorate,” the “warlords” of the military establishment, and “corporate chieftains” at the helm of Big Business bureaucracies.3 Hardly resulting from the legitimate free market defended by libertarians, the social and economic problems and crises we see all around us are in fact the moldering fruits of elite statism. And war, as both the engine of an entire economic paradigm and its attendant psychological and sociological substructure, has been the American state’s most preferred expedient, burdening peaceful, productive society with class rule. The permanent war economy, the unremitting exercise in plunder that now makes up a terrifyingly large portion of the economy at large, must necessarily poise itself upon antisocial state-worship. As Vicesimus Knox wrote, “Fear is the principle of all despotic government, and therefore despots make war their first study and delight.”4 The existence of a corporate command-and-control economy, whose configuration grows out of layered state interventions, depends crucially on popular attitudes regarding the state. Only a public trusting of elite judgment and expertise would abide a system built on just the kinds of subjugation that the American ruling elite hypocritically claimed to defy in two world wars.


These media companies are using a loophole in the law that classifies them as tech platforms and not publishers liable for their content. Unless you want to do away with libel laws, slander laws and regulations for the publishing industry you should support regulating these tech monopolies.

So reclassify them as publishers, starting with Facebook and Twitter. They exercise editorial control, so make them live up to the standards of publishers.

Then there's the issue of how import are the service they provide. The west has become so reliant on the internet and digital communication that IMO it's getting close to becoming a utility like water, roads and phone services.

But why? There are decentralized means of communication available. No one is forced to use Twitter, Facebook, et al. I don't, and if anyone asks my opinion I'd advise them not to.

Imagine if social movements like the civil rights movement or the temperance movement could have been disrupted by the corporate/gov oligarchs just shutting off water, electricity and phones to political dissidents.

It's not obvious to me that the outcomes of those movements have been on balance good for humanity. That's really at least two different discussions though.

That's how these giants are operating. Hell they are even getting into denial of banking services.

I'm aware that banks are now being weaponized by radical extremists to punish wrongspeech. Our banking system has been fucked for generations. Free market solutions are not allowed to spring up because the banks are fully integrated fascist institutions.

I'm not totally anti libertarian ideas. I enjoy a lot of what Hoppe says but we have to deal with the current legal and political situation we are living in now.

Empowering the elites by creating more government enforced monopolies isn't a solution to the problem of monopolies.

In many cases the oligarchs manipulate libertarian minded voters to oppress people even further. I.e. they might 'deregulate' a certain sector of the economy but only to give it to their cronies in a secret sale and then those cronies never really break up or sell the industries to allow competitors.

I mean ... yes of course. "We're encroaching on your liberty for your own benefit" is nothing new. Societies which refuse to adopt personal accountability as a cultural norm must always depend on the "kindness" of their rulers.

Capitalism is totally being stifled by this alliance but small libertarian changes actually make matters worse not better. That's why there are oligarchs that back both progressive AND libertarian factions. They use both to get their way.

As we've seen, capitalism works pretty well in fascist systems. I think it works even better in systems based on individual liberty. Let me know when you've suffered enough. Then maybe we can talk about the best steps to end fascism in America.

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's called the corporatocracy.

Mussolini defined fascism as the union of state and business. That word has been distorted.

Corporatocracy will be more difficult to confuse.

[–]send_nasty_stuff[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So reclassify them as publishers, starting with Facebook and Twitter

That's the 'regulation' that's being called for.

There are decentralized means of communication available

There are also other ways to get water. Other ways to get to work. Other ways to communicate other than a phone line.

It's not obvious to me that the outcomes of those movements have been on balance good for humanity.

I actually agree with you here but the point still stands.

creating more government enforced monopolies isn't a solution to the problem of monopolies.

I'm not really calling for more gov enforced monopolies. I'd like the barrier of entry to come down for facebook and twitter clones to pop up. Not all regulation creates gov monopolies. In a modern industrial society there's more nuance than regulation bad freedom good.

As we've seen, capitalism works pretty well in fascist systems. I think it works even better in systems based on individual liberty. Let me know when you've suffered enough. Then maybe we can talk about the best steps to end fascism in America.

Totally agree. I'm not sure 'fascism' is the best term for it but I get where you're coming from. I think it's just a good old oligarchy. I like the terms Globo homo and cartel capitalism as well. (I.e. globo homogeneity).

[–]sawboss 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's the 'regulation' that's being called for.

I'm not really calling for more gov enforced monopolies. I'd like the barrier of entry to come down for facebook and twitter clones to pop up.

I admit I missed the nuance. I'm afraid congress will too (maybe intentionally). So much outcry over this has desensitized me.

People see a problem and demand government solutions. No one seems to consider that everything govt. does is at the cost of everyone's liberty, excluding the elites of course. Then people get embittered about "inequality" and all that jazz, and insist on empowering the govt. to do even more. The cycle just expands the web of corporate/govt. power on each iteration.

I'm not sure 'fascism' is the best term for it

https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Common-characteristics-of-fascist-movements

The true core feature of fascism is the one it shares with communism: subordination of the individual to the state.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2011/12/07/capitalism-is-decidedly-not-corporatism-or-cronyism/

I'm not entirely satisfied with the word capitalism either. Maybe "free markets" would be better. I'm more concerned with freedom in terms of individual liberty than economics. Perhaps "free markets" is a better term.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No one seems to consider that everything govt. does is at the cost of everyone's liberty, excluding the elites of course.

Perfectly stated.

There are no such thing as free markets. All markets are governed in some ways. Regulations to some are protections for others and they ebb and flow with the political breezes.

[–]sawboss 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And don't forget this:

https://www.rt.com/usa/455173-facebook-regulation-zuckerberg-privacy/

They want regulation. I believe because they intend to bring about the capture which will permanently enshrine their monopolies in law.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know what it is exactly but Zuck has the most punchable face. I mean, I don't know if it's actually punchable. Maybe it would break my hand. But I just want to try sooo badly.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Corporatocracy.

Also technocracy.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Then there's the issue of how import are the service they provide. The west has become so reliant on the internet and digital communication that IMO it's getting close to becoming a utility like water, roads and phone services.

But why? There are decentralized means of communication available. No one is forced to use Twitter, Facebook, et al. I don't, and if anyone asks my opinion I'd advise them not to.

As stupid as they may be, it is absolutely critical to be able to reach the masses. The option to use alternatives must not be blocked, just as the option to use the commons must not be blocked.

They have intentionally herded all the sheeple into the common arenas and pushed the fringe out. The fringe will never amass the power to affect change and the status quo still controls the sheeple and power. Unless...

[–]sawboss 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I say it's fucking stupid to put your entire life on a website you don't control.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're not wrong. But that doesn't remove the critical necessity to have access to the masses they've corralled.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Demand separation of banks and state !

[–]Loli_Lord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Speaking of which, it's only a matter of time before imgur catches the censorship disease.

[–]send_nasty_stuff[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

agreed. What image hosts do you like? What image hosts are used on saidit (I'm new here)

[–]Loli_Lord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm new here too, my man.

I honestly don't know. There was once a site called slimgur but now it's gone. It was created when the imgur admins were removing images posted in r/fatpeoplehate, most notably the one showing the fat imgur staff.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)