all 42 comments

[–]bobbobbybob 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

effectively drown out more moderate and left leaning people

Why not stay on reddit, which is a left-leaning cess pool?

I'm here personally because I'm a huge 1st emendment advocate

Ah, so you want the appearance of free speech, without actually having to deal with dissenting voices.

even distribution of right and left leaning views

Who defines the 'centre' about which you can conveniently place your 'left and right' in equal harmony? The very idea of a linear spectrum is assinine. I'm a hard left conservative socialist, if you want to play with words, but do any of them mean anything?

The label reduction stifles the cncepts being discussed, as people retreat to their paltry concepts, built from a bombardment of mainstream 'talking points'.

Break free, my friend, and be prepared to discuss ideas and thoughts without having to take a partisan position. The truth doesn't care how we label it, indeed, they just get in the way of us seeing it clearly.

There is a great rule in place - the discussion pyramid. Try and stick to it and you'll help build the forum you want to use.

[–]Zombi 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I agree with your 3rd point, but I feel you're completely misreading his point in the first 2 quotes.

He's not saying he wants this place to be a left leaning liberal paradise. He's saying he's worried the users kicked off reddit (who are much more likely to be right-leaning) will drown out left leaning stances. He's actually advocating for free speech and equal representation, while it seems like you're advocating for censorship with how your response amounting to "If you want more left representation then you should just leave." If he had said "We should promote those with left leaning views" then you'd be correct, but he isn't and you're not.

He's not advocating to silence the right or dissenting voices, he's advocating for more representation for the left. You're actually the one advocating for censorship/anti-first amendment rights right now...

[–]Themagicalmidget[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes, this is 100% what I'm saying. I never want to silence anyone.

[–]Zombi 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I just so happen to hold those same views. I came here to learn and speak with others with wildly different views. I think you and I understand perfect 100% balanced representation is impossible; there will always be a slant, but we can at least try to correct it.

It's like how conspiracies are very popular on this site. I personally find 90% of them complete bullshit, but I'd never tell anyone that they shouldn't post them. I argue against them when I feel like putting forth the effort thus correcting the "slant". I'm not censoring, I'm representing the contrary.

[–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

i notice y'all sidestepped the 'left and right is a nonsense" part , which was really the meat of the comment.

[–]bobbobbybob 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That is a pretty gross misrepresentation of my words.

"If you want more left representation then you should just leave."

Is not anything I said. I said. If you want to be in a left leaning place, why did you leave the left-leaning place. "why not stay..." is a long way for "leave ..."

You're actually the one advocating for censorship/anti-first amendment rights right now...

Dear god. No. I'm not. If that's what you read in my words, then communication has failed.

[–]Zombi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well I can accept that miscommunication occurred and that was the point of my post. I'm sorry if I twisted your words, it was not my intention. I understand where you're coming from better.

My main point remains, though. This user is not advocating for left dominance, they are advocating for equal representation of all views.

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Imma going to condense it right down:

what is 'left and right anyway, but an artificial and imposed duality that has no real meaning is is actually destructively unhelpful'?

[–]slabgreen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Left" and "right" are meaningful as any other terms. All words are made up.

[–]Drewski 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True, but in the context of American politics they're intentionally misleading and divisive.

[–]JasonCarswell 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

True left is not Corporate Democrat SJW Manufactured Left.

Just like alt-right is not Trump and the war monger NeoCons.

I listen to everyone and lean left but lean way more towards voluntarism.

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

what part of : '"left / right " is an artificial and unhelpful concept ' is everyone missing?

Your words are entirely redundant and miss my point completely.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

The Corporate Democrats and the Republican NeoCons are the engineered constructs pushed on everyone, both insane and artificially divided distractions from real issues with real left right folks whether you want to admit they exist or not.

These authentic left-right folks are progressives and alt-right - both terms that MSM tries to distort.

I don't buy most of it. But many people do. They are real people with real identity politics and tribes, manufactured or not.

By classic definitions I lean to the left more often than right but above all I lean towards voluntarism.

You labelled just as I did. There's nothing wrong with left-leaning or right leaning. Being in the cess pool or swamp is another story.

What part of that do you not understand?

[–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

ok, was hitler left, or right?

what even IS left? right?

[–]JasonCarswell 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Depends on the contexts.

I have a new 3D political map I will incorporate in my Trutherism 101 animated series.

It's a sphere rather than a 2D square or diamond chart, and we all fit in it. There are no corners, and there really are few absolutes at the XYZ axis poles.

Up = authoritarianism, totalitarianism, hierarchical (full spectrum dominance, corporatocracy, technocracy, Zionism, Wahhabism, banksters, gangsters, monopoly on violence, establishmet matrix of rigged systems, slavery, prisons, executions, etc.)

Down = anarchism, voluntarism, non-hierarchical (freedom, Natural Law, without rulers, wilderness, etc.)

Front = certainty, truth, facts (proof, open-science, transparency, fairness, etc.)

Back = dogmas, lies, deceptions (religions, patriotism, scientism, manipulative propaganda, etc.)

Left = communal-interests (socialism, contributing, sharing, supporting, etc.)

Right = self-interests (tribalism, capitalism, accumulating, investing, etc.)

Note: The left and right are NOT meant to represent the corporate-manufactured or authentic-conventional left-right paradigm.

While abstract ideal forms, none are achievable. Some are not mutually exclusive. If there were better words or concepts I'd use them. Communism, anarchy, free markets, or equality are wonderful ideas but are practically impossible. Still we must wage peace, fight for fairness, and battle for balance.

Further, a person, or even identity, does not exist in one point within this sphere. They are a cloud of points, on a case by case basis, sometime inhabiting two or more contradictions simultaneously, evolving.

There are limits to this chart. It doesn't have wisdom, free will, logic, etc. Or lack thereof.

[–]d3rr 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Can we have 'constitutionalists' here too? I feel like the built in decentralization of state's rights gets glossed over, and constitutionalism gets lost in all of the various forms of libertarianism. This OG political philosophy is still valid and deserving of recognition.

I'd say it belongs in Down, although not as far down as the others you mentioned.

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Constitutionalism could be a dogma, like Libertarianism, generally more free (down) than lots of "-isms".

(Interestingly enough progressivism (perpetually redefined by many interests) is pretty nebulous depending what it's about, and who's talking about it in what way.)

Check out: /s/USAmerica/comments/kqa/powers_principalities_episode_98_the_constitution/

( See also: /s/Democrat/comments/k4q/we_need_a_new_name_for_progressives_kim_iversen/ )

They're biased conservative truthers but I've known about Constitutional-Skepticism since ~2004 listening to liberal-biased Noam Chomsky break down how the Founding Fathers were clever in seeming like they were for freedom, while owning slaves, exploiting the poor, in secret societies, and trapping/centralizing power.

There is still tricky word craft in there with layers of meanings, and despite its intentional or accidental flaws, I like Constitutionalism because it's fundamentally MUCH MUCH MUCH simpler.

Ironically, I'm a Canadian and know much less about my own situation and so-called rights.

[–]d3rr 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

HHahaha good points man, and thanks for the videos. I'll watch at least this first one. Yes, wordcraft, very interesting.

I'll give it to Noam that the founders were hypocritical about slavery and 15% or 20% of them were in secret societies. I don't think these are very fair tho: exploiting the poor, trapping/centralizing power.

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You think there was a giant leap from slavery to middle class? No man, it was the same old shit first, then they get more complicated for this same new shit we've got now. And between 1776 and now was the Civil War of Northern Aggression to keep them all centralized and under their thumb, and most of those guys fighting didn't own slaves but they died anyway. The Spanish American War, more of the same. And on and on and on... That's all "they" have ever done.

They moved mountains to unify those first 13 states, and then it was all downhill from there.

[–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Perhaps we could just discuss ideals, mechanisms and ideologies without whacking labels on them at the start? sit on our hands and resist the urge to pop people into pre-defined boxes until a few days of discussion has passed?

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds good.

[–]Themagicalmidget[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I want real free speech, but also with diversity of opinion, rather than just internet self balkanization like is present on every internet forum as of late. I 100% never want to censure you no matter what you say on here. That is why I love that there are no down votes here and transparent moderater logs. I believe discussion of any topic can help people better understand each other and maybe find common ground. I would bet I agree with 50% of your views while deeply apposing others that you hold and that's okay. I will look at the discussion paramid you are referencing. I'm new here and not well versed with saidit yet.

[–]trevmon 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

i think if any site has the system of having different sub forums, like this, reddit and voat and chans etc all do, people will go to where they want. And what if there was just one website with a message board system, what will happen is people will go to whatever thread that agrees with the, besides the internet this is how people naturally flow to political parties. Like how certain party leaders censor ideas, owners of websites, admins, mods etc censor ideas. I'm leftwing on economy and rw on sociali issues, no one really agrees with me, no party to vote for, no website to go to, and this is by design since it is the best possible philosophy (yes I am biased) and the rich don't want it. They don't want leftwing economic redistribution of resources the ystole and they don't want rw nationalistic social policies that keep people from being divided and conquered.

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Welcome to saidit!

internet self balkanization

That is a great phrase, I may steal that.

[–]Enkidu 6 insightful - 7 fun6 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Just give it time. Reeeeee!ddit won't be satisfied until they have banned everything except cat pictures.

[–]Iwvet 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Join or form subs that fit your beliefs, but don't be butthurt if you go on a sub opposite to what you believe and you don't like what they have to say.

[–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree.

[–]HopeThatHalps 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

saidit is not going to be what people here want it to be, it's going to just be a reddit alternative, because to put it simply, it's a reddit clone. The only thing any reddit clone has to offer is "not being reddit".

What saidit wants to be exists in the form of https://changeaview.com/ , it's a site that is structured around constructive debate. What you're doing here is taking a link agrator platform and suggesting that it be used in a particular way, but you rely on the honor system, and the Internet is not an honorable place. stackoverflow has a website set up specifically for questions and answers, imgur created a site based around image sharing, and so they accomplish what they set out to do, unlike saidit.

The premise of saidit is that the people were the problem, but it's the platform that is the problem. If you think things are getting bad now, just look at voat. That's what's coming. Imagine a toilet where every time you flush, more shit comes out of it.

[–]senatorpjt 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It will probably be the same as when everyone left Digg and went to Reddit. It happened because of what Digg did to itself, Reddit was just in the right place at the right time.

I don't know if Voat ever had a chance, but if it did, that opportunity was lost by being unable to scale when there was a major incident over at Reddit. Reddit seems to be more of a slow-motion trainwreck now, so perhaps it won't be as much of an issue. But if there is some other major event (like say, banning The_Donald), if this site can't handle the traffic it's going to be a lost opportunity.

[–]poestal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

voat did have a chance during the whole pao debacle. people where leaving in droves to voat but their servers crashed for like two weeks because of mass migration. eventually people returned to reddit and the ones who couldn't were the ones you see today.

what saidit needs to prepare for is the reddit "hug of death" when people start to come in droves.

[–]5Nco2VME7FpWVbuS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unfortunately to prepare for that they will need funding, and I doubt the guys running this place are making much off of it in its current state.

[–]DR3DDL0CC 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As long as there's no assholes who hates on everything in this site, then we are cool. Seriously, everybody seems to hate on something nowadays...with no reason or context whatsoever.

[–]trevmon 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

just can't have censorship, on reddit the politics and the d subs both censor either way

[–]admirablexcursion 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wonder the same thing. I wouldn't want this to become a retarded leftist circlejerk like reddit or a nazi hillbilly cesspool like voat. Saidit should be the exception.

[–]Fire 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There's a whole lot of people from /r/CringeAnarchy on the way, that's for sure. And having an "even distribution" is an unrealistic expectation to hold, and that's because it's impossible.

But that aside, pretend if this site were exactly as you, individually or among select others, wanted it to be. Would it be correct to assume someone else (or a whole lot of people) might consider it to be an "echo chamber" in some form or fashion?

Absolutely. And thinking otherwise winds up landing with just endless shortcuts and excuses to account for the complexities of communicative society.

[–]slabgreen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really sure what you're saying, but OP supports a site with many differing views and debates. That is, by definition, not an echo chamber.

[–]IamRedBeard 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I say just let it grow slow. Most of the extreme psycho's either on the Left or Right seem to be going over to Voat right now. Let that Toxic shit hole suck up all the nuts. I'm here because of ban happy mods and Reddit's crack down on itself. At least here, so far I can get some reasonable views from both sides with a minimum of crazy.

I say lets do what we can to keep the growth slow and steady and only put a ban on subs that attract toxic people from the left or right. No White Nationalist subs no Antifa subs, no hate subs. If we don't attract that kind of User in the first place maybe we can keep Saidit a place of rational discussion. And who cares about getting big? Big is what is killing Reddit.

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

[deleted]

    [–]papiersackratte 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Diversity of opinions is welcome, only dragging discussions down the pyramide of debate is not welcome. I removed your ban but now you're in the automoderator, your posts need to get manually approved in order to be visible.

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]papiersackratte 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      I just care about what other people say, nothing more.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]papiersackratte 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

        Yeah mods are literally Hitler.