I have an idea that might help people learn to program. Let's talk about it.

submitted by Canbot from files.catbox.moe

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[–]package 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is stupid. Unless you have the worst teacher ever, when learning to code it is made abundantly clear that the language is simply a way to express the behavior you want. In every programming class I ever took, from middle school all the way to college, the first day would always mention that the language we'd be using is just one of the many available. Yes, some of the class would inevitably be dedicated to learning the language itself, but the language was simply a means to express the actual concepts like data structures and control flow and monads and imperative vs functional paradigms. Essentially this video is obvious masturbatory wishy-washy handwaving waffling BS that is suggesting the equivalent of learning to talk without being taught any specific grammar.

[–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You are saying the same thing he said but then claiming that what he said is bullshit.

[–]package 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm saying it is obvious and not some revelation that we need to use to rethink how people are taught coding. Coding has been taught this way forever and it's how everyone with a formal education learned it.

edit: also I am specifically not going as far as the retard einstein wannabe in the video; he's implying with his flowery monologue that a language isn't necessary to learn coding, which like I've said is stupid. It doesn't matter which you start with, but you need one to teach the concepts.

[–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Literally. Let's talk about it like you would tell a story, or have a discussion. Then this thread can be read by all.

Would anyone who knows how to program be willing to do this? What language do you use? What kinds of programs do you write or have written?

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

i got the degree in computer science

what I wanted was to learn to create programs

what I got was how to be a corporate cog in a c++ machine

what I found is TCL .. the command language . tcl (programming language) with tk (gui toolkit for tcl) you have an entire programming enviroment in which to realize your dreams. it doesn't try do everything, but provide you with the building blocks to do your own thing.

https://www.tcl.tk/about/language.html

script programming is appropriate for a majority of the programming tasks.. aside from graphically intense games

in the end I agree with anman tho.. programming and writing are not the same

the majority of the time when I am programming i spend my time figuring out how to do a thing.. and putting 'blocks' together of things I already know work but want them in a specific way that is unique to each programs needs..

and much of the time.. i am feel i see my best code when I understand how the underlying commands I am using work.. so reading and remembering how things link together .. is a large part of programming.

memory. you must be able to remember things.. to commit ideas that must be remember to memory and recall them.

so discernment is the key element, to notice the important bits.. and in many ways you only come to know the important bits.. because you see them all the time.

[–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It sounds like the problem is that the programming language is so hard to use that you can't just put your ideas to paper, and that is why the analogy fails.

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

suppose it would hold true if you where writing a technical document that forced rules and regulations that one must fulfill

but that would be as close to similar as is possible

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So, I am a writer and a programmer. And what this guys said makes no sense to me. I considered going back and watching it again, but I couldn't be bothered.

Writing and programing are two completely different things, other than that they share the joining of letters and symbols for a purpose. When I write a story, I absolutely need a completely different environment (surrounding, distraction level, background audio), than when I am programming. When I am making games, do creative writing and programing in the same session.

You can't get anyone to program if they do not want to.

[–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What you call programming he calls coding and he breaks down writing into conceptualizing the story and typing it out.

Before you can "write down the program" you have to conceptualize it.

  1. What will it do.
  2. What are the general processes it will use.
  3. What are the important details that are needed.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Perhaps what we are considering writing, needs to be looked at instead. Are we writing a creative piece? Or a technical manual?

Because when you creative a piece of fiction for example, or even adding flair to non fiction, you do not follow those steps.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course you don't. A manual has to be as understandable as possible to make it easy for users. that is why i consider "usability" itself a dark pattern.

If a complex task is solvable in a too self-explaining way, it should raise eyebrows.

The more usable an UI is the more it nudges users. Which is an contradiction to complex. If anybody can grasp my gist.

If you want to free your users, a good manual should widen their view instead of usability narrowing it.

"Good" users even read the fucking manual which generation z mostly doesn't.

This is the reason, why their behavior is too fucking easy to hack. Which the asshole-companies will keep exploiting till the last dollar gets printed.