all 23 comments

[–]ElifromtheBook 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (12 children)

I can explain this phenomenon, because i study it right now ! :-)

It is called "creep" current. Every source of current has certain things connecting its poles. Even the batteries in the pack will go dead. Most likely later because the resistance between them is higher than the resistance connecting the batteries in your flash-light. They most likely are connected by metal which itself has a low resistance, even when turned off.

[–]bobbobbybob 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

They most likely are connected by metal which itself has a low resistance, even when turned off.

are you high?

When a flash light is turned off, there is NO CONNECTION. so your explanation needs to cover what allows the 'creep current'. There is no difference in the internal configuration of a battery in a pack or in a torch.

Is it migration of environmental electrons, limited by the surface area of the electrodes?

Because that would make sense. When plugged into a torch, the +ve and =ve surface areas increase by the SA of all the connected metal. There is no connection between +ve and -ve, otherwise the light would be ON.

In a battery box, the surface area is minimal, as the electrodes are just a button and a flat plate.

Will go find real science to verify

[–]ElifromtheBook 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

There is a phenomenon called Brownian motion and above that entropy.

Turned "off" in quantum physical terms means "mostly turned off". It doesn't even relate to a surface, as easily is proven with a statistical integral.

[–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

you've failed to bring any real science to the table.

So here am I, with a masters degree from the university of cambridge, in Natural Sciences, with another Msc and 7 years of research, with one of my papers quoted in nature, and there you, a student with a head so big he has to thrash his cock on an internet forum to get validation.

If you want to bring hyperdimensional mathematics into this, bring it. I spent years working with it. Specifically with wave function solutions in 5d topologies.

If you are trying to imply that electrons are going to tunnel across a unclosed switch, then say it. i'm happy to stand corrected if you can demonstrate, mathematically, that quantum tunneling has a perceptible effect over the lifetime of a pack of batteries.

so. Bring it, maggot. bring some fucking science, not a dictionary

[–]x0x7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now you're just bullshitting.

[–]Aiz0eihu 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is a good explanation of this phenomenon. Also explains why batteries left in a device for a long time start leaking.

[–]raven9[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Even the batteries in the pack will go dead.

Yes eventually they do but what Im talking about is this - get a new pack of batteries, put some in a flashlight and save the rest. Six months later come to use the flashlight and find the batteries are nearly dead while the batteries that were left in the pack are still like new.

[–]Red23 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

He already answered you.

[–]bobbobbybob 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

he answered, but with nonsense.

It isn't called creep, it is called Self-discharge, creep describes changes in the internal electrodes over a number of charge/discharge cycles.

The explanation given talks about lower resistance when in a torch, but provides no mechanism.

[–]ElifromtheBook 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

That is is difference in resistance. Higher resistance means lower creep current.

Ideal isolators are only a model to think of. Every electro-technician to be knows that these don't exist in reality.

And since i did mathematics and physics already and just now are in third semester electrical engineering: You can trust me on this.

As soon as you start to abstract it you get to "inner resistance" and then to a PDE nobody possibly can dream of solving. So just accept my first humble explanation.

[–]bobbobbybob 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

You can trust me on this.

hello liberal. We trust no authority but god and our own cognition. I'm an actual scientist and I say your explanation is sorely lacking.

Nothing internal changes about the batteries when the are in the torch, so there can be no change in internal self-discharge processes. There must be something else going on, if the effect is real. You have not even begun to explain what that is.

[–]ElifromtheBook 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Bring counter-proof. To the table. I invite you.

Then we'll re-account and prove in 5 minutes that black matter ain't just any idea.

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

you haven't come up with a coherent explanation, so it is impossible to 'counter proof' since you have not described a proof in the first place.

[–]bobbobbybob 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

what an interesting question.

did a bit of research. fun papers like: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257172972_Self-discharge_characteristics_of_a_metal_hydride_electrode_for_Ni-MH_rechargeable_batteries

main factors seem to be: temperature.

maybe the pack is cooler?

I mentioned elsewhere a theory of increased electron migration due to the large surface area of the connected circuit. Can't find any papers on that but am happy to do the experiment and publish if someone wants to pay for it

[–]ElifromtheBook 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Already known. But i like your way of transporting general physics knowledge to the public.

[–]Bigs 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

OK fuckwits, I'll explain it as the comments are getting ridiculous...

Here's the deal. In the pack, the batteries are entirely disconnected from anything at all. For all (of our) intents and purposes, zero current goes anywhere.

When actually installed in a device, the switch in the "off" position has simply created a tiny little gap. Plus you usually have at least 2 batteries connected together, so twice the potential and a teeny, weeny gap...

What happens is little stray electrons or wotnot do indeed creep across that gap. The current is nothing like enough to activate the device and you'd struggle to measure it with a voltmeter but there IS a tiny flow.

Another classic example of this is how a car or boat battery will actually drain just because it's dirty or dusty. Again it's tiny but a little tiny weeny current is actually flowing through the dirt and dust, connecting the 2 terminals, and those are quite a long distance away from each other. The gap in a flashlight switch when 'off' is probably only about 1 or 2 mm. Some tiny current will creep through the air or across the plastic.

Now you may say "Bullshit, the circuit is broken!" but read your own question again. The effect is strong enough for you to have noticed it, right?

[–]Popper 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

yup and I think it's a lot not just a little current floating. It goes thru the air easily and doesn't have to be touched. And batteries do run down while in the pack just like they do inside the flashlight. Batteries have a shelf life of 5-10 years. Nicola Tesla knew how to have free energy in the air. This isn't used because companies can't monetize it as well, they need it to be something you have to buy, either batteries or electricity that comes into your home thru a wire. If it's in the air how do they charge for it? Maybe require a password like with wifi? So every device would need a little password prompt on it? That might come in the future but up to now it wasn't feasible. This is also why companies are don't use solar power, that is free coming from the sun, a perpetual motion machine for all intents. How to monetize it, can't guard it like an oil field or nuke plant.

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

tesla used AC - resonant AC current.

[–]ExtremeKiwi 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You'll also notice that alkaline batteries stored in a pack usually don't leak, while ones stored in a flashlight have a much higher chance of leaking. I'd be interested to see if electron migration through the long connected leads is responsible. Another theory (my off-the-cuff theory) is that the battery begins a slow chemical or physical degradation after a single short usage. Perhaps test by putting batteries in a flashlight and resist the urge to click it on for a moment "just to check that they work".

[–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

is that the battery begins a slow chemical or physical degradation after a single short usage.

that's an interesting idea. I've been searching scholar for some time, but not found anyone else even trying this yet. Think we could get a grant off queen Cindy to give it a go?

[–]AmericanMuskrat 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The phenomenon is caused by flashlight gnomes.

[–]ElifromtheBook 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Gremlins mostly. Because only idiots with too much time on their hands actually pull out a blackboard on this. We can produce infinite alkaline batteries can't we ?

[–]anescapee 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The "switch" in many modern devices is actually connected to a semiconductor and it has a tiny standby current always draining the batteries. this is most obvious on the current crop of garmin GPS' If you push the power button it will blank the screen but it's still powered up and will go flat in a week or less. If you push and hold the power button for several seconds you'll get a "turn off device" screen and then choosing YES will power it down completely. As for the alkalines in torches and packs well I think there the measurements may be a bit subjective. For instance someone buys a pack and loads a torch and then sticks the torch in the cupboard for a few years but the batteries in the pack get used in other devices and another pack is bought and opened. Unless someone has date stamped the pack when bought and the batteries in the torch when fitted how could you tell? NiMH batteries are a curse too. never let them sit flat for a year, they leak like a bitch.