Why do Redditors make fun of the 'security theatre' of the TSA but lose their shit over people not wearing a thin piece of cloth over their face?

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[–]Velocity 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (38 children)

This is an intentionally dishonest and false parallel statement. If someone is concerned about a pathogen, then by all means they can cover their faces. However, to attempt to make others indulge in their same fears is forcing their will on those with differing viewpoints.

[–]cybitch 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Say you are worried about people being armed, so you propose a rule where people need to be patted down before they can get on an airplane. But others then state that while you are free to get patted down, they have the right to refuse. Sure they do, but the issue is even one armed person on an airplane is going to be a problem for everyone. The sort of mask the average civilian has access to (I presume America still has a shortage of N95s) protects others from them, not the other way around - the mask on a surgeon serves to protect the patient from them, not the other way around. So there sort of is no point unless everyone wears them.

[–]Velocity 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

Basic Strawman fallacy, but at least you're trying. People can still fairly easily sneak weapons onto planes, at least according to every TSA security audit. Imagine a significant percentage of these airplane passengers didn't actually care if some passengers were armed? Then imagine another percentage of airline passengers living in quivering terror of even the thought of an armed passenger even though statistically before the Tsa, weapon problems on airplanes were a very rare event. Then these cowering people demanding that those that didn't really care about armed passengers to share in the zealous hysterics of the cowardly.

See.....about as dumb as your Strawman comment.

Also, non n95 masks don't work for "holding in" germs no more than they work for keeping out germs. Are you daft?

[–]cybitch 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Getting infected by a virus is not a rare event though? In fact, it's pretty much guaranteed to happen if you get too close to someone who has it. Do you have a reason to believe someone coughing towards you without a mask would be more likely to not infect you?

So, you'd be okay with your surgeon not wearing a non N95 mask then? Because that's what I would consider daft, but you do you!

[–]Velocity 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

If someone is coughing or sneezing, then they should be at home...correct? Enough of your hyperbole.

Why are you petrified of a cold like virus that is less dangerous than seasonal influenza?

[–]cybitch 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Yes they should be at home, but they would also tell you they have the right to go whereever they want just as you have the right not to be muzzled by masks that don't work anyway - I guess surgeons just wear them for fashion purposes?

Why do you presume I'm personally afraid of anything? I'm not even American. I'm from one of those silly countries that are still currently allowed to travel for a summer holiday instead of being quarantined by the whole world. I feel so unfree and muzzled. Still, I don't like it when people with poorer health die from a preventable infection, even if I'm personally not at risk.

[–]Velocity 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

You and I both know that surgeons wear N95 masks and your persistent false parallel doesn't hold water.

Considering Covid is demonstrated to be no more deadly than seasonal influenza, then masking seems to be a massive over reaction. It would follow then that masks and quarantining should happen every normal cold and flu season too...using the mainstream narrative.

The elderly and immuno compromised should wear N95 and quarantine as a prevention. It's not your responsibility to have to change your way of life for what represents a small minority at risk that are outliers.

[–]cybitch 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, surgeons do not wear N95 masks. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/UnderstandDifferenceInfographic-508.pdf

It's fine to say only the people at risk should wear those masks but at the end of the day they are going to be interacting with other people. A lot will be living with their families or in facilities with employees constantly coming and going. Not to mention no country seems to even have enough N95s for doctors let alone every old person in the country.

[–]Velocity 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Masks don't work.

AAPS | Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

curated by Marilyn M. Singleton, M.D., J.D.

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2

Note: A COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) particle is 0.125 micrometers (μm); influenza virus size is 0.08 – 0.12 μm; a human hair is about 150 μm.

*1 nm = 0.001 micron; 1000 nm = 1 micron; Micrometer (μm) is the preferred name for micron (an older term)

1 meter is = 1,000,000,000 nm or 1,000,000 microns

Droplets

Virus is transmitted through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs, sneezes or talks. Larger respiratory droplets (>5 μm) remain in the air for only a short time and travel only short distances, generally <1 meter. They fall to the ground quickly. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30245-9/fulltext This idea guides the CDC’s advice to maintain at least a 6-foot distance. Virus-laden small (<5 μm) aerosolized droplets can remain in the air for at least 3 hours and travel long distances. https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?articleTools=true Air currents

In air conditioned environment these large droplets may travel farther. However, ventilation — even the opening of an entrance door and a small window can dilute the number of small droplets to one half after 30 seconds. (This study looked at droplets from uninfected persons). This is clinically relevant because poorly ventilated and populated spaces, like public transport and nursing homes, have high SARS-CoV-2 disease transmission despite physical distancing. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30245-9/fulltext Objects and surfaces

Person to person touching The CDC’s most recent statement regarding contracting COVID-19 from touching surfaces: “Based on data from lab studies on Covid-19 and what we know about similar respiratory diseases, it may be possible that a person can get Covid-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose or possibly their eyes,” the agency wrote. “But this isn’t thought to be the main way the virus spreads. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/s0522-cdc-updates-covid-transmission.html. Chinese study with data taken from swabs on surfaces around the hospital https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0885_article?deliveryName=USCDC_333-DM25707 The surfaces where tested with the PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test, which greatly amplifies the viral genetic material if it is present. That material is detectable when a person is actively infected. This is thought to be the most reliable test. Computer mouse (ICU 6/8, 75%; General ward (GW) 1/5, 20%) Trash cans (ICU 3/5, 60%; GW 0/8) Sickbed handrails (ICU 6/14, 42.9%; GW 0/12) Doorknobs (GW 1/12, 8.3%) 81.3% of the miscellaneous personal items were positive: Exercise equipment Medical equipment (spirometer, pulse oximeter, nasal cannula) PC and iPads Reading glasses Cellular phones (83.3% positive for viral RNA) Remote controls for in-room TVs (64.7% percent positive) Toilets (81.0% positive) Room surfaces (80.4% of all sampled) Bedside tables and bed rails (75.0%) Window ledges (81.8%) Plastic: up to 2-3 days Stainless Steel: up to 2-3 days Cardboard: up to 1 day Copper: up to 4 hours Floor – gravity causes droplets to fall to the floor. Half of ICU workers all had virus on the bottoms of their shoes Filter Efficiency and Fit

*Data from a University of Illinois at Chicago review

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

HEPA (high efficiency particulate air) filters – 99.97 – 100% efficient. HEPA filters are tested with particles that are 0.125 μm. Masks and respirators work by collecting particles through several physical mechanisms, including diffusion (small particles) and interception and impaction (large particles) N95 filtering facepiece respirators (FFRs) are constructed from electret (a dielectric material that has a quasi-permanent electric charge. An electret generates internal and external electric fields so the filter material has electrostatic attraction for additional collection of all particle sizes. As flow increases, particles will be collected less efficiently. N95 – A properly fitted N95 will block 95% of tiny air particles down to 0.3 μm from reaching the wearer’s face. https://www.honeywell.com/en-us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-masks-explained. But even these have problems: many have exhalation valve for easier breathing and less moisture inside the mask. Surgical masks are designed to protect patients from a surgeon’s respiratory droplets, aren’t effective at blocking particles smaller than 100 μm. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VLXWeZBll7YJ:https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/957730O/respirators-and-surgical-masks-contrast-technical-bulletin.pdf+&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Filter efficiency was measured across a wide range of small particle sizes (0.02 to 1 µm) at 33 and 99 L/min. N95 respirators had efficiencies greater than 95% (as expected). T-shirts had 10% efficiency, Scarves 10% to 20%, Cloth masks 10% to 30%, Sweatshirts 20% to 40%, and Towels 40%. All of the cloth masks and materials had near zero efficiency at 0.3 µm, a particle size that easily penetrates into the lungs. Another study evaluated 44 masks, respirators, and other materials with similar methods and small aerosols (0.08 and 0.22 µm). N95 FFR filter efficiency was greater than 95%. Medical masks – 55% efficiency General masks – 38% and Handkerchiefs – 2% (one layer) to 13% (four layers) efficiency. Conclusion: Wearing masks will not reduce SARS-CoV-2. N95 masks protect health care workers, but are not recommended for source control transmission. Surgical masks are better than cloth but not very efficient at preventing emissions from infected patients. Cloth masks will be ineffective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, whether worn as source control or as personal protective equipment (PPE). "Masks may confuse that message and give people a false sense of security. If masks had been the solution in Asia, shouldn’t they have stopped the pandemic before it spread elsewhere?”

[–]King_Brutus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Why are you petrified of a cold like virus that is less dangerous than seasonal influenza?

This is demonstrably false. And the rate of spread paired with the death rate is why it's a problem.

[–]Zahn 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

demonstrably false

Because the man on tv reading a script told you so? Do your research, prove your premise, master your mind, own your thoughts and make them yours and yours alone....not someone else's.

Until recently, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated the annual mortality burden of influenza to be 250 000 to 500 000 all-cause deaths globally; however, a 2017 study indicated a substantially higher mortality burden, at 290 000-650 000 influenza-associated deaths from respiratory causes alone.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/influenza-(seasonal)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6815659/

Covid Mortality Rate (23k / 8.4M = 0.28% CMR to date) and Probability of Dying

As of May 1, 23,430 people are estimated to have died out of a total population of 8,398,748 in New York City. This corresponds to a 0.28% crude mortality rate to date, or 279 deaths per 100,000 population, or 1 death every 358 people. Note that the Crude Mortality Rate will continue to increase as more infections and deaths occur (see notes under the paragraph "Herd Immunity" below for details).

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/

Using patient data from China, public health officials initially estimated that 80% of COVID-19 cases are either asymptomatic or have mild disease.

A group of researchers analyzed data from China and found that the overall mortality rate of COVID-19 was 1.38%. But if they adjusted for cases that likely went unaccounted for due to their mild or asymptomatic nature, the overall mortality rate decreased to around 0.66%, they reported on March 30 in journal The Lancet Infectious Diseases. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/04/we-could-be-vastly-overestimating-the-death-rate-for-covid-19-heres-why/

Coronavirus death rate may be lower than previously thought

The death rate from COVID-19 is likely around 0.66%, if counting the mild or asymptomatic cases, according to a new study https://www.livescience.com/death-rate-lower-than-estimates.html

Nearly All NYC-Area COVID-19 Hospitalizations Had Comorbidities

A new study published April 22 in the Journal of the American Medical Association characterizes the symptoms, comorbidities, and clinical outcomes of 5,700 patients hospitalized because of COVID-19 in the New York area. The authors found that 94 percent of the patients had a chronic health problem, and 88 percent had two or more. The three most prevalent conditions were hypertension (56.6 percent), obesity (41.7 percent), and diabetes (33.8 percent).

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nearly-all-nyc-area-covid-19-hospitalizations-had-comorbidities-67476

Just today, from an ER System senior Exec in Texas: Senior Executive at Texas ER Chain Reveals Real Reason For Spike in Coronavirus Cases Published June 30, 2020 at 12:03pm

JB Neiman, a Managing Partner and General Counsel of a Texas-based company that owns 13 free-standing clinics in the state of Texas said "More testing kits means they are able to test a broader group of patients." "What is driving people to the ER? The executive breaks that down: Roughly half have been told by their employer to get a test — if they have a sneeze or a cough, their employer tells them to go home and get tested. The other half just want to know if they have COVID (some have mild symptoms and some have no symptoms." Discharge planners are being pressured to put COVID as primary diagnosis because it pays significantly better, according to JB Neiman. Neiman concluded:

“What we are seeing at our facilities is more of a positive story…You have more people who are testing positive with minimal symptoms.

This means the fatality rate is significantly less than commonly reported.”

And we can keep going and going on this, why do I have to spoonfeed you?

[–]King_Brutus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sigh. For one, why would you compare COVID deaths vs the total new york population instead of COVID deaths vs people INFECTED WITH COVID. That doesn't make sense.

Second, using your own website that you linked me the seasonal flu mortality rate is less than 0.1%, while COVID sits at 2%.

To the article's credit, we can't technically know the fatality rate in the middle of a pandemic, but I think there's good enough information to take reasonable precautions for the sake of safety.

And how does a comorbidity in any way take away the danger of the disease? Underlying health conditions don't suddenly make diseases less dangerous, they just make it more dangerous to people with underlying diseases.

Is it going to kill everyone? No, but the point is A) to not overwhelm hospital systems and B) to protect vulnerable populations which have a particular weakness to any easily spread disease.

[–]Zahn 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

For one, why would you compare COVID deaths vs the total new york population instead of COVID deaths vs people INFECTED WITH COVID

This is common procedure for medical research to calculate 'probability of dying', individuals per 100,000.

seasonal flu mortality rate is less than 0.1%, while COVID sits at 2%.

You missed the point of the links. The 2% figure represents previous deaths for Covid which was older data, before more recent revelations. Where it is now becoming more apparent, that partly because of incompetence and partly because hospitals were provided financial incentive to lie about Covid infections, they then grossly inflated reported infections. False positives, co-morbidity...diagnosing people with seasonal influenza as having covid instead....etc..etc...

And how does a comorbidity in any way take away the danger of the disease? Underlying health conditions don't suddenly make diseases less dangerous, they just make it more dangerous to people with underlying diseases.

Because it's mostly dangerous to people with underlying conditions, elderly, immunocompromised. Not the general reasonably healthy population. Its no more dangerous than the seasonal flu. These amounts of deaths now being reported by over-sensationalized media because of covid, has been happening every year from common influenza your whole life. No one cared, no one notice, nothing reported. But, now...for some reason....it's media spotlight.

Is it going to kill everyone? No, but the point is A) to not overwhelm hospital systems and B) to protect vulnerable populations which have a particular weakness to any easily spread disease.

If someone is vulnerable they should stay at home quarantined with a mask on.

I think there's good enough information to take reasonable precautions for the sake of safety.

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

― Samuel Adams

Put your muzzle on slave.

[–]King_Brutus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

At BEST, your article says it's too early to determine an accurate case fatality rate.

Case per 100k and case fatality rate are two separate things. From your own article again: The case fatality rate (CFR) represents the proportion of cases who eventually die from a disease.

And you do understand that a large part of the population is either A) has underlying conditions B) is elderly? Not everyone is the pinnacle of health. You keep saying it's no more dangerous than the flu but there is no evidence to support that and all evidence SO FAR to support that it has a higher case fatality rate than the flu. Case fatality rates according to Johns Hopkins using RECENT DATA (not from early spring at the beginning of the pandemic like a lot of your information is) indicate that it can range from 1.4% in South Africa all the way up to 15% in the UK. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Your civil liberties aren't being trampled because you have to wear a mask to the grocery store dude.

[–]quickbeam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People cough and sneeze at random sometimes due to allergies, dry throat, looking in the sun, whatever. Plenty of people are out there coughing and sadly most of them are not wearing masks which would keep their droplets mostly to themselves. Loud talking also releases more droplets.

[–]Quixoticfutz 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

The masks are there to protect others unless you have an actual medical mask on, you wearing mask won't protect you from johnny over there standing 1ft from you with no mask but protects everyone else from you.

That people complain about mask usage but seem to be fine with businesses demanding pants, shirts and shoes when then it's not even a public safety issue but a moral one is astounding, shows how much people hate personal responsability. All the rights, none of the duties.

[–]Velocity 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Trying to stop a virus with a cloth mask is literally like trying to stop mosquitoes with a chain link fence.

Absolutely no effect whatsoever.

And even beyond people touching their mask, their face, not washing them, leaving them all over their homes, cars and then touching those surfaces.

This is a foolish feel good measure that has zero real world impact.

N95 masks would at least stop the virus, but they would still be susceptible to the wide spread mishandling by the general public.

Unless you have an N95 mask or better, masks are completely and utterly pointless.

period.

[–]quickbeam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I hate having to bring out the man peeing analogy multiple times, but here it is again - if a man is peeing without underwear and you are standing near him, you will get wet, even if you're wearing pants. If a man is peeing and wearing underpants even if you're standing near him without clothes on, you'll probably be okay. That's what a mask does - protects others. I think it's worth the slight inconvenience in order to protect others from a disease which is more than its mortality rate - it's also the people who are getting permanent lung, brain and organ damage from it or spending weeks and months in the hospital racking up huge medical debt. I'm wearing a mask for you and your family. Please consider doing so for me and mine.

[–]yayblueberries 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

The most ridiculous thing about all of this is that all of a sudden you hypocrites all suddenly give a shit about protecting everybody else from an illness you don't even know whether you have, but every fucking cold and flu season I come into contact with numerous assholes who freely cough into open air with people around them and don't wash their hands at all. And I'm not just talking about people who would get fired if they took the day off of work. Every American who suddenly cares so much about masks is a massive hypocrite. You fuckers don't do shit when you have a cold, flu, strep, or gastroenteritis. You don't care about others, you all never actually did, and you still don't. You care about virtue signaling, that's all.

[–]quickbeam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just because we should have cared about something in the past but didn't, doesn't mean we shouldn't start caring now or that our motives aren't positive. People aren't hypocrites when they learn to do better. And I care very much about others. I even care about you, despite the fact that I'm a "fucker who doesn't do shit" in your eyes ;)

[–]Velocity 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Everything you say is just pure opinion. It is about as dangerous as Influenza, and all those times you had a severe cold or flu...You didn't give a damn about wearing a mask or other preventative measures. Pure hive mind virtue signaling on your part because it's socially popular to be a boot licker.

I make it a point to not wear a mask and I stand very close to other people. I hope you get so scared of the boogeyman man virus that you pee yourself.

[–]whistlepig 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I hope you get so scared of the boogeyman man virus that you pee yourself.

I laughed. ;]

I wish that sentence and its context could fit on a bumper sticker

[–]Velocity 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks, I had a laugh writing it too.

[–]quickbeam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I wear the mask to protect you, not because I'm so scared. I'm a member of reality who sees what other countries are doing to stop the virus and that it has worked. Scientific studies may differ slightly because things are new and just being studied in earnest, but that doesn't mean it's the same as "pure opinion." I didn't wear a mask before for flu or cold, but I may in the future. Asian countries have done it all along, and they often have sensible solutions to problems.

[–]Velocity 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

No, you just can't into your own research, and depend on the establishment to tell you what to do. Asians wearing masks, and still suffering astronomical infections is only evidence to support their lack of effectiveness.

Deny science all you want, but you can't refute it: https://saidit.net/s/AskSaidIt/comments/5gvs/why_do_redditors_make_fun_of_the_security_theatre/l8fp

[–]quickbeam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I have a lot of friends who live in South Korea and I lived there for a while. Things are basically back to normal, but everyone wears masks. Infection rates are so much lower than the States even though Korea had their first case the same day as ours and it's a much more densely packed country. I don't think it's going to be productive discussing this further with you, but if you want to see success at dealing with Coronavirus, Korea is a great example and we are one of the worst in the world.

[–]Velocity 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

China also widely used masks and had very high infection rates. South Korea's currently low Covid rates are attributed to a number of things, and mask usage is not considered as being one of them.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-south-korea-has-done-correctly-in-battling-covid-19#January-19:-The-same-starting-point

Other nations with high daily mask usage, also report among the highest rates of Covid.

Your fixation on South Korea is a simple case of confirmation bias. You're seeing what you want to see. It's a like a flu friend, stop wringing your hands in worry over this media hyped hysteria.

[–]quickbeam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You're using an article from months ago before South Korea reopened. The only way they've been able to reopen is with masks. Again, I know people who live there and what daily life is like there as compared to here. And, no, it's not only masks, but masks help and even common sense should tell you that they keep droplets in. If you don't want to operate with common sense, I can't help you.

[–]Zahn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That people complain about mask usage but seem to be fine with businesses demanding pants, shirts and shoes

What's most astounding is how you can come up with such a low Iq Strawman fallacy. Shirts and shoes required are due to societal norms that have been acquired through hundreds of years.

You are being irresponsible by allowing your hard fought civil rights be violated indefinitely because of your cowardice about catching a cold. That's your prescient civil duties, not putting your muzzle on that has no proof of effectiveness.